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Pseudo-Pre Dreadnought [Discussion[

#1
RULES!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uRig...sp=sharing
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#2
Oh hello here Captain! I was thinking about bringing up my summer predread plans, after current running tournaments end, but here you are.
So may i say something as feedback, or advice, or however you call it.
This type of ruleset with trying to force reality-alike construction decisions, apparently, wasn't too popular. Probably because this is heavily unrealistic game, where such decisions on their own are just bad, and using them makes no sense.
Instead, i'd take the basic philosophy lying behind the predreads, and build ruleset around it, while trying to keep allowed much of engineering freedom and diversity of this game. Also i'd try to cover some gamey aspects of FTD that i dislike, like floaty alloys or tiny engines, or all these "floating gunbrick in paper disguise" designs, but it's personal.

I'm not that much of warship geek as i wanna be, so may be wrong, but here how I understand "predread philosophy"... in form that matters for game.
They wanted the ultimate warship, that ideally will defeat any other ship of it's class in 1vs1 engagement, and easily sink everything smaller, while being able to sail the seas for long enough and not sink. But all they had to do this, is limited supply of iron, wood, bulky steam engines, and single-shot cannons aimed basically by eyeballing, with simple ammunition, along with price issues, logistics, docks sizes, and such.
Ship hulls built with current tech were heavy themselves, and additional weight capacity was one of the main limiting factors.
Guns, armour, and engines were heaviest components; engines also largest.
All of them were in fact underperforming, so sacrificing anything too much wasn't good idea.
Battleship costs a fortune (or two), and they cannot be disposable(as in glass cannons), thus armour.
As repairing heavily battered ship will still be cheaper, than building new one (not always true, but that's how they thought), armouring usually was focused on keeping ship afloat and powered in first place, so it could at least flee in worst case. Shooting second. This is why belts. This and structural integrity thing, that's not existing in FTD.
Heavy guns were incredibly slow, and more often than not, the medium battery was considered main firepower, especially against smaller targets.
Also was believed, that even heaviest guns may be insufficient against belt armour, and so rams were re-introduced as effective fatal blow weapons.
Battles themselves they imagined either as classical battlelines with exchanging shots until someone sinks, or as chaotic brawl where everyone just shoots and rams whatever he can.

"Gamification' of this i'd like to see here, instead of straight replicating of final realisations of this, that were invented in completely different "ruleset" of reality.
So solid, sinkable brawler ships with good survivability, trying to look and work like a predread would, where gun, armour and engine limits are set by how many you actually can squeeze in that boat, but with all them being much heavier on cost, weight and size than in normal FTD.
Win conditions can be extended beyond "kill the opponent", towards "make the opponent not threat anymore".
Makes things.
The fastest thing in the universe is sluggish... Years, decades, centuries from star to star.
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#3
(2018-12-21, 07:21 AM)DraWay Wrote: Oh hello here Captain! I was thinking about bringing up my summer predread plans, after current running tournaments end, but here you are.
So may i say something as feedback, or advice, or however you call it.
This type of ruleset with trying to force reality-alike construction decisions, apparently, wasn't too popular. Probably because this is heavily unrealistic game, where such decisions on their own are just bad, and using them makes no sense.
Instead, i'd take the basic philosophy lying behind the predreads, and build ruleset around it, while trying to keep allowed much of engineering freedom and diversity of this game. Also i'd try to cover some gamey aspects of FTD that i dislike, like floaty alloys or tiny engines, or all these "floating gunbrick in paper disguise" designs, but it's personal.

I'm not that much of warship geek as i wanna be, so may be wrong, but here how I understand "predread philosophy"... in form that matters for game.
They wanted the ultimate warship, that ideally will defeat any other ship of it's class in 1vs1 engagement, and easily sink everything smaller, while being able to sail the seas for long enough and not sink. But all they had to do this, is limited supply of iron, wood, bulky steam engines, and single-shot cannons aimed basically by eyeballing, with simple ammunition, along with price issues, logistics, docks sizes, and such.
Ship hulls built with current tech were heavy themselves, and additional weight capacity was one of the main limiting factors.
Guns, armour, and engines were heaviest components; engines also largest.
All of them were in fact underperforming, so sacrificing anything too much wasn't good idea.
Battleship costs a fortune (or two), and they cannot be disposable(as in glass cannons), thus armour.
As repairing heavily battered ship will still be cheaper, than building new one (not always true, but that's how they thought), armouring usually was focused on keeping ship afloat and powered in first place, so it could at least flee in worst case. Shooting second. This is why belts. This and structural integrity thing, that's not existing in FTD.
Heavy guns were incredibly slow, and more often than not, the medium battery was considered main firepower, especially against smaller targets.
Also was believed, that even heaviest guns may be insufficient against belt armour, and so rams were re-introduced as effective fatal blow weapons.
Battles themselves they imagined either as classical battlelines with exchanging shots until someone sinks, or as chaotic brawl where everyone just shoots and rams whatever he can.

"Gamification' of this i'd like to see here, instead of straight replicating of final realisations of this, that were invented in completely different "ruleset" of reality.
So solid, sinkable brawler ships with good survivability, trying to look and work like a predread would, where gun, armour and engine limits are set by how many you actually can squeeze in that boat, but with all them being much heavier on cost, weight and size than in normal FTD.
Win conditions can be extended beyond "kill the opponent", towards "make the opponent not threat anymore".

So I should remove the alloys from the design? Although they're sort of needed to keep the ships from being too heavy? Maybe? I'll need to test it.

To keep the small engines thingy, that's why I'm thinking to build the steam engines people are to use. It's probably gonna be very, very bad. XD

The last paragraph sounds like I should set length and width limits... And possibly lower the resource cost even more to like 75k...

And with all of my ships, it ends up being 'not a threat anymore' due to how flipping durable they end up being. As least compared to my guns.
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#4
Hi

Pre-dreadnoughts are my thing, and you are generally correct apart from ship ranges and I would like to add something about gunnery. Battleships had fairly limited endurance. One of the issues the Russians had at Tsushima was the ships were having to carry coal in virtually every available space - and it burned so well...The long-range and overseas deployed platforms were usually some breed of cruiser. In British terms that would be, at best, a 1st Class Protected Cruiser or, later, and Armoured Cruiser. The French built ships in the 1880s called Cuirassier Stationnaire, in effect an armoured mini-battleship and they lingered overseas until into the 20th century, but 1st class battleships were rare (ecept the Russian Pacific Squadron at Port Arthur). The second class battleship was found overseas as well (HMS Centurion and HMS Barfleur on China Station, HMS Renown on North America and West Indies) But, generally, the need was to retain battleships closer to home. One factor was cleaning the hull. If a ship's hull was not coppered and sheathed in teak it would attract what was euphemistically called marine life, which would foul the hull and cause drag. Cleaning meant dry docking and facilities were generally confined to home waters. Coppering and sheathing was expensive and cost about a knot in speed.

In regard to guns, the Quick Fire revolution was in train by 1890, which meant that guns of 6" and under could spew forth shellfire. Two factors in play here were that the breech of a gun this size could be operated by manpower alone, plus a 6" shell was considered the heaviest shell that could be carried by a single man. In addition, Percy Scott's introduction of continuous aim meant that guns this size were kept on target during the motion of the ship rather than simply firing on the roll. So, QF guns of this calibre and under were both more accurate and had a far higher rate of fire than their larger bretheren. So Fisher could say that although the 12" guns were the main armament of a battleship, the 6" pieces were the main guns. See the Yalu or Tsushima for details. With engagement ranges of 3000 yards or so, the smaller guns were very effective at 'tearing up the sides' of a ship.

Eventually, larger guns also fired progressively faster, the pace of improvement being very fast. So that y 1906 the 12" was fast enough to be used as the all-big-gun battery in Dreadnoughts.

In terms of tactics, nobody was aiming for a Lissa-style brawl. But there was a debate betweem whether to favour broadside fire or end-on fire. This had an effect on ship architecture. the most extreme is seen in French designs with the pronounced tumblehomes and lozenge armament in order to emphasise end-on fire. The British, in contrast, felt that broadside engagements were more important.

In terms of size, well, a Canopus class battleship was 431 feet long and 74 feet at maximum beam. But, a contemporary Protected Cruiser was not much smaller. HMS Diadem was 435 feet long and 69 feet at the beam. If you want something enormous, try the 1st Class cruiser HMS Terrible that came in at 538 feet long and 71 feet at the beam (to get high speed and endurance).

WW
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#5
So. Uh. Here's the prefab engines on their raft.

[Image: Yhhy8Rj.png]

This should be capable of propelling most designs to around 7m/s? Maybe? I need to fix up my Pseudo-Pre-Dreadnought Example into something that doesn't get uncomfortably close to 100k without anything else other than the basic armor and an engine, albeit, not this engine. Yet another reason to make a new one. (Most certainly due to me making this first hull too big and using too much metal.) Once I get it finished, or at least workable, maybe with detailing, maybe not, I'll post it so you guys can look at it and see what changes should be made in the name of fun. Kinda tempted to allow a total of 5k be used toward torpedo boats...

quick edit: some spelling errors;

and I'm thinking to remove alloy entirely so ships have a possibility of sinking.


Attached Files
.blueprint   Pseudo-Pre-Dreadnought Engines.blueprint (Size: 50.48 KB / Downloads: 8)
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#6
(2018-12-21, 02:17 PM)William White Wrote: Hi

Pre-dreadnoughts are my thing, and you are generally correct apart from ship ranges and I would like to add something about gunnery. Battleships had fairly limited endurance. One of the issues the Russians had at Tsushima was the ships were having to carry coal in virtually every available space - and it burned so well...The long-range and overseas deployed platforms were usually some breed of cruiser. In British terms that would be, at best, a 1st Class Protected Cruiser or, later, and Armoured Cruiser. The French built ships in the 1880s called Cuirassier Stationnaire, in effect an armoured mini-battleship and they lingered overseas until into the 20th century, but 1st class battleships were rare (ecept the Russian Pacific Squadron at Port Arthur). The second class battleship was found overseas as well (HMS Centurion and HMS Barfleur on China Station, HMS Renown on North America and West Indies) But, generally, the need was to retain battleships closer to home. One factor was cleaning the hull. If a ship's hull was not coppered and sheathed in teak it would attract what was euphemistically called marine life, which would foul the hull and cause drag. Cleaning meant dry docking and facilities were generally confined to home waters. Coppering and sheathing was expensive and cost about a knot in speed.

In regard to guns, the Quick Fire revolution was in train by 1890, which meant that guns of 6" and under could spew forth shellfire. Two factors in play here were that the breech of a gun this size could be operated by manpower alone, plus a 6" shell was considered the heaviest shell that could be carried by a single man. In addition, Percy Scott's introduction of continuous aim meant that guns this size were kept on target during the motion of the ship rather than simply firing on the roll. So, QF guns of this calibre and under were both more accurate and had a far higher rate of fire than their larger bretheren. So Fisher could say that although the 12" guns were the main armament of a battleship, the 6" pieces were the main guns. See the Yalu or Tsushima for details. With engagement ranges of 3000 yards or so, the smaller guns were very effective at 'tearing up the sides' of a ship.

Eventually, larger guns also fired progressively faster, the pace of improvement being very fast. So that y 1906 the 12" was fast enough to be used as the all-big-gun battery in Dreadnoughts.

In terms of tactics, nobody was aiming for a Lissa-style brawl. But there was a debate betweem whether to favour broadside fire or end-on fire. This had an effect on ship architecture. the most extreme is seen in French designs with the pronounced tumblehomes and lozenge armament in order to emphasise end-on fire. The British, in contrast, felt that broadside engagements were more important.

In terms of size, well, a Canopus class battleship was 431 feet long and 74 feet at maximum beam. But, a contemporary Protected Cruiser was not much smaller. HMS Diadem  was 435 feet long and 69 feet at the beam. If you want something enormous, try the 1st Class cruiser HMS Terrible that came in at 538 feet long and 71 feet at the beam (to get high speed and endurance).

WW

Well, I completely missed this. ^^;

Very good points. I was gonna put the starting engagement range at 1.5km and the DQ range at 2km, that way ships can start broadsiding in whatever manner they want ASAP if they so desire. Definitely going to be pointing them at each other. Although I'm not really certain as to how endurance would play a role in here beyond the resource storage for steam engines. 

And when it comes to the guns, are you suggesting a limit on how many secondaries are to be allowed or what? I'm having a little bit of trouble figuring out how what you've said comes into play toward balancing the tournament beyond "here's some stuff about predreadnought battleships!"
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#7
(2018-12-21, 02:17 PM)William White Wrote: Hi

Pre-dreadnoughts are my thing, and you are generally correct apart from ship ranges and I would like to add something about gunnery. Battleships had fairly limited endurance. One of the issues the Russians had at Tsushima was the ships were having to carry coal in virtually every available space - and it burned so well...The long-range and overseas deployed platforms were usually some breed of cruiser. In British terms that would be, at best, a 1st Class Protected Cruiser or, later, and Armoured Cruiser. The French built ships in the 1880s called Cuirassier Stationnaire, in effect an armoured mini-battleship and they lingered overseas until into the 20th century, but 1st class battleships were rare (ecept the Russian Pacific Squadron at Port Arthur). The second class battleship was found overseas as well (HMS Centurion and HMS Barfleur on China Station, HMS Renown on North America and West Indies) But, generally, the need was to retain battleships closer to home. One factor was cleaning the hull. If a ship's hull was not coppered and sheathed in teak it would attract what was euphemistically called marine life, which would foul the hull and cause drag. Cleaning meant dry docking and facilities were generally confined to home waters. Coppering and sheathing was expensive and cost about a knot in speed.

In regard to guns, the Quick Fire revolution was in train by 1890, which meant that guns of 6" and under could spew forth shellfire. Two factors in play here were that the breech of a gun this size could be operated by manpower alone, plus a 6" shell was considered the heaviest shell that could be carried by a single man. In addition, Percy Scott's introduction of continuous aim meant that guns this size were kept on target during the motion of the ship rather than simply firing on the roll. So, QF guns of this calibre and under were both more accurate and had a far higher rate of fire than their larger bretheren. So Fisher could say that although the 12" guns were the main armament of a battleship, the 6" pieces were the main guns. See the Yalu or Tsushima for details. With engagement ranges of 3000 yards or so, the smaller guns were very effective at 'tearing up the sides' of a ship.

Eventually, larger guns also fired progressively faster, the pace of improvement being very fast. So that y 1906 the 12" was fast enough to be used as the all-big-gun battery in Dreadnoughts.

In terms of tactics, nobody was aiming for a Lissa-style brawl. But there was a debate betweem whether to favour broadside fire or end-on fire. This had an effect on ship architecture. the most extreme is seen in French designs with the pronounced tumblehomes and lozenge armament in order to emphasise end-on fire. The British, in contrast, felt that broadside engagements were more important.

In terms of size, well, a Canopus class battleship was 431 feet long and 74 feet at maximum beam. But, a contemporary Protected Cruiser was not much smaller. HMS Diadem  was 435 feet long and 69 feet at the beam. If you want something enormous, try the 1st Class cruiser HMS Terrible that came in at 538 feet long and 71 feet at the beam (to get high speed and endurance).

WW

Good points, something I completely missed. Yep, fast firing 6"s... it's what i meant by "medium battery is main firepower"
Something though omitted or included by intent of this being a gamey entertainment more than historical research, as i find some "pre-predreadnought" ideas fun enough to include. Like though nobody was really expecting Lissa-style brawl, we here can. For the sake of fun! (and because of our beloved artifical idiot helmsmans)

@Fox, endurance in tournament format indeed is not a thing, we'll have 5 minutes battles. Space taken by coal is covered by game's need in whole meters of armour, i think.
About engines, how I planned to do this is create purposely ineffective engine and boiler prefabs, where actual working bits are configured as you need them, and surrounded by decorative shells, to deliver intended speed by intended cost and size. Also huge prefabs will prevent builders from squeezing engines in random corners between guns, they'll need dedicated compartments, and have more chances to being hit.
Not tellin you to do that, just saying.

Hmm have another might-be-fun idea. How tournament mod reacts on opponents being spawn beyond DQ range and being there for some time, if they sailing towards each other?
We can have ships "encounter" each other from afar and begin their battle by closing distance, with some chances for lucky hits or something, but they'll not be allowed to stay there or run away and snipe.
Makes things.
The fastest thing in the universe is sluggish... Years, decades, centuries from star to star.
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#8
I think if you just allow a total amount of components per turrets it should limit peoples to construct a 1 super powerfull turrets, or maybe just give a total amount of firing components for your entire ship. I don't think we must limit the gauge size for the main guns, maybe only for the secondaries. 100k seems fine to build a decent ship without beeing to big. It's the perfect size between a a destroyer and a battleship. Don't forget that each steam propellers cost 3k to 5k material. I found the prefab steam engine a littler bit too restrictive. Maybe just allow whatever steam engine we can built, efficient or inefficient, or maybe give a rule to follow: 2boilers/steam piston or something like that. That way, we have a little bit more creativity to create whatever pre-dreadnough we want to build. But the concept is very intersting and I really want this tournment to work. Just give a little bit more creativity to how many turrets and propellers we can place to have interesting and differents ship. Otherwise, every ship will look the same. This tournament should be really fun, you can look at the rules of the SC LC or BB tournament rules of Harnas, it can be a good starting point. Sorry for me english.
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#9
(2018-12-23, 08:09 PM)Armenor Wrote: I think if you just allow a total amount of components per turrets it should limit peoples to construct a 1 super powerfull turrets, or maybe just give a total amount of firing components for your entire ship. I don't think we must limit the gauge size for the main guns, maybe only for the secondaries. 100k seems fine to build a decent ship without beeing to big. It's the perfect size between a a destroyer and a battleship. Don't forget that each steam propellers cost 3k to 5k material. I found the prefab steam engine a littler bit too restrictive. Maybe just allow whatever steam engine we can built, efficient or inefficient, or maybe give a rule to follow: 2boilers/steam piston or something like that. That way, we have a little bit more creativity to create whatever pre-dreadnough we want to build. But the concept is very intersting and I really want this tournment to work. Just give a little bit more creativity to how many turrets and propellers we can place to have interesting and differents ship. Otherwise, every ship will look the same. This tournament should be really fun, you can look at the rules of the SC LC or BB tournament rules of Harnas, it can be a good starting point. Sorry for me english.

Thank you for the comments! (each line break corresponds to a sentence in your post) (I'll put the rules I currently have in the bottom of this post, then edit the main post too.) 

Are you saying I should make a max number of components per turret? I have decided to go 'no multi barrels per FP beyond 47mm' and no beltfed autoloaders on multi-barrels to prevent the 9001 RPM spam that would otherwise occur. (I'll put the rules I currently have in the bottom of this post, then edit the main post too.) And all the Pre-dreadnoughts have a tooooooon of smaller guns to attack torpedo boats with as well as other ships as they can, so limiting a total number of FPs would be....strange.

Well if I don't set a max gauge size, everyone is gonna make a buttload of 500mm cannons because those are the best to use. I have decided to continue +1 gun every drop in 25mm to include down to 279mm, which puts it at 8 guns if you were to go for 279mm.

Glad to hear! I am tempted to allow any unused material (after a minimum of 75k) to be used for either gunboats or torpedoboats (rules of which will be listed in the rules at the bottom of the page).

They seriously cost that much? That seems far to excessive for a propeller.

Hmm. I'll need to see how much the stuff costs again. I did (jokingly) put 28 boilers on the original P-P-D-E and that thing costs over or really close to 100k without any guns. But that might be due to all the metal used in it... So 4 per piston might be too much too... I think the actual max propellers used on Pre-Dreads was three, so that might be it here too.
------------------------

DraWay's post:

Good points, something I completely missed. Yep, fast firing 6"s... it's what i meant by "medium battery is main firepower"
Something though omitted or included by intent of this being a gamey entertainment more than historical research, as i find some "pre-predreadnought" ideas fun enough to include. Like though nobody was really expecting Lissa-style brawl, we here can. For the sake of fun! (and because of our beloved artifical idiot helmsmans)

@Fox, endurance in tournament format indeed is not a thing, we'll have 5 minutes battles. Space taken by coal is covered by game's need in whole meters of armour, i think.
About engines, how I planned to do this is create purposely ineffective engine and boiler prefabs, where actual working bits are configured as you need them, and surrounded by decorative shells, to deliver intended speed by intended cost and size. Also huge prefabs will prevent builders from squeezing engines in random corners between guns, they'll need dedicated compartments, and have more chances to being hit.
Not tellin you to do that, just saying.

Hmm have another might-be-fun idea. How tournament mod reacts on opponents being spawn beyond DQ range and being there for some time, if they sailing towards each other?
We can have ships "encounter" each other from afar and begin their battle by closing distance, with some chances for lucky hits or something, but they'll not be allowed to stay there or run away and snipe.
-------------------------------------

Oh I have plans for a Battle of 'Wutland' by putting half the entries on one side and the other half on the other. Big Grin   And since rams are allowed....

Hmm. That seems a little too much for me to do. XD Especially to make the things look good. Not to mention possibly uber expensive for this resource limit...

So would that be have both teams really spread out across the map and let them just try and find each other? (is a battle royale type thing possible with the tourney mod?)



SO! RULES! YAY!

General

Maximum size in any dimension: 140m

Maximum resources: 100k

Minimum resources: 75k (any extra can be used in torpedo boats or gunboats)

All ships MUST have the propellers completely submerged at all times! (As long as your 140m tall vertical dakkapillar is submerged enough at the bottom for the propellers to be totally underwater, it counts.)

Building

Only allowed major building materials are wood and metal! NO HA OR LWMA! Glass, lead, and the other bits and pieces can be used as decoration.

MUST use steam engines! (If you don't want to make your own or don't know how to make one, use mine from the P-P-D-E raft thingy.)

If you're making your own steam engines, 2 boilers per piston. (Might change to two steam controllers per piston though, in which case I'll make a new prefab engine raft)

AI

Four AI are allowed, however only one can have the naval AI card and must be named 'Captain'! (It would be appreciated if all are named, so as to make it easier to tell when one's been knocked out).

Weapons

Allowed weapons are APS, Torpedoes, and Rockets.

APS are in two categories: Big Guns and Small Guns. All ships MUST have at least one of each!

Max size and number of Big Guns is a single 430mm with each drop in 25mm allowing an extra gun until the minimum of 279mm is reached. At that point you can have a maximum of 8.

There's no maximum total number on Small Guns.

Small Guns maximum size is 255mm.

NO multibarrels-per-firing-piece is allowed on anything over 47mm and the maximum number of barrels is 5.

NO belt-fed autoloaders on multibarrels.

Any mixture of solid, HE, composite cap, AP cap, HE cap, pen-depth, inertial, or timed fuses are allowed. (No sabot, HESH, HEAT, or other specialty shells)

There's a maximum number of 7 small or large torpedoes, or 30 medium. No limit on the gantry size however.

Torpedoes and rockets are unguided except for magnets with HE being the only allowed warhead.

Rockets MUST move faster than 350m/s.

Torpedo Boats and Gunboats

Minimum size of 2.5k.

Torpedo Boats can't have guns and Gunboats can't have torpedoes.

Torpedo Boats can only have medium torpedoes (but don't count toward the max number).

Gunboats can have whatever mix of guns you can fit.

Must also use steam engines!



Quick edit: With regards to the "140m in any dimension" if you want a 140m deathsphere, go ahead and make yourself a 140m deathsphere.
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#10
Armenor has some really good points. Rules like Harnas had worked very well in getting ships tgat followed the same idea, but still allow variety in creativity.

Primary guns max nr of components -60 maybe?-
Secondary guns max nr of components -200?-
Torps allowed -medium only, max 7 meters per torp. Max 20 gantries-
No alloy.
Ammo must be within 5m of each prim. and sec. turret.
No ammo fabricators or repair bots
0.7 autodetect
Max 120k mats
May only use steam engines.
May only use large boilers for steam generation
Localized resources, no centraluzed: have enough storage to battle for 15 minutes.
Armor on the ship must be present on both port and starboard side.
May only use steam propellers
HEAT, HESH, EMP, Grav ram, supercav, sabot and rail gun drives are banned.
Guns may only be APS.

Perhaps a beauty vote part as well?

CRAM CRASH COURSE

(There is) A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
-Ecclesiastes 3:3
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