Not a member yet? Why not Sign up today
Create an account  

Poll: What do you think?
You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
I think OW has too much armor and not enough things that explode
14.29%
2 14.29%
I think OW is fine as it is
85.71%
12 85.71%
Total 14 vote(s) 100%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
 
Onyx Watch too borring?

#1
Sad 
I know that every that every faction has rules that every craft is supposed to follow. OW's ships are supposed to have an "emphasis on durability". But i feel that this idea was taken too far. Some of the OW vessels are little more than lots of metal beams with a few cannons on top. The most striking example is Kingstead. Fighting it takes a really long time, it has at least twice as much blocks(volume) per material as a WF craft of similar class. It has basically no weak points as AI is protected from EMP and hidden beneath tons of armor. The only way i manage to destroy it is by making it go beneath 55% hp, after 80 it often has no cannons left, so it is really just shooting it until it reaches 55% hp. I think that many of the players agree that the one of the greatest things about combat in FTD is when you managed to score some kind of "critical hit" and enemy turret or ammo storage goes boom, making a huge hole in the enemy craft. There is nothing explosive in Kingstead, except for a little ammo as crams don't need much and this ammo is covered in layers upon layers of armor and destroying it won't any serious damage anyway.
My suggestion is: make certain OW ships have more guns at cost of armor, also it wound make sense to replace ammo processors with a lot of barrels because some OW ships have tonns of empty space that we could fill with something, because according to the lore, OW hates to waste (and barrels generate free ammo) and beacause it will make fighting them more exiting than shooting a ship for minutes until it goes under 55% hp.
Reply

#2
Agree on adding more booms, not so on cannons. Almost everything in FTD already is glass cannon or even just plain cannon without even glass, covered in "active defences". Partially it's because there's nothing really to add beside weapons, let's hope this changes in future.
Makes things.
The fastest thing in the universe is sluggish... Years, decades, centuries from star to star.
Reply

#3
(2018-11-10, 08:32 PM)DraWay Wrote: Agree on adding more booms, not so on cannons. Almost everything in FTD already is glass cannon or even just plain cannon without even glass, covered in "active defences". Partially it's because there's nothing really to add beside weapons, let's hope this changes in future.

I think that glass cannons are in fact great. It is much more interesting to watch a fight between 2 glass cannons that a fight between 2 tanky vessels that would take ages to do any serious damage. But i didn't say that we should add more cannons. I said we should remove some armor and add more ammo boxes
Reply

#4
I have a small plane (18-23k) that kills Kingsteads. Also, aim manually for the turrets.
Reply

#5
(2018-11-12, 05:27 PM)drNovikov Wrote: I have a small plane (18-23k) that kills Kingsteads. Also, aim manually for the turrets.

I don't have a problem defeating OW ships, i actually think it is hardly an achievement to defeat them using a plane. You could probably do the same with a tiny sub for that matter since OW use mostly CRAMs. OW are NOT OP, i never said they are OP, and it this is not what this topic is about. The problem is that you just knock out the guns and then watch for 10 minutes as the HP go down to 55%. Now that is the problem.
Reply

#6
I think it's just the way they are built compared to everything else.

The game is balanced in such a way that we have powerful weapons that chew thru everything , so everything dies or is rendered harmless within a few minutes.,things that aren't gets complaint threads posted about them.

The large OW ships are huge blocks of empty metal, break their defenses(missile or EMP), strip their detection, strip their guns, than wait.....and wait

There is 2 reasons for this:

AMMO spoofing- they put a few barrels everywhere to keep it from chaining , and since we are stuck with the Ai going for the ammo we have to wait while our craft punch hundreds of holes in them trying to kill every ammo barrel

multiple Ai- they use more Ais than what is needed to keep lucky single shots from killing huge expensive ships, which sets up the problem of them hanging around way longer than they are viable.

The first problem is more telling of a weakness in the Ai/detection system. If the player knows about ammo spoofing , he can use it against everything and there is nothing they can do, if something else uses ammo spoofing there is nothing the player can do because the Ai always goes for the Ammo. I see alot of people who are annoyed by this lack of control or choice. most of those people want center of mass back which has it own set of problems. The option to choose different weapons going after different things would be ideal.

The second problem is only seen in the large OW ships, the little ones die just like everything else. I think this was originally done to keep the large OW ships from being captured early on in the campaign , even though there were plenty of other limitations keeping the player from using them(or wanting to use them) they just cost so much when you scrap them , it kinda becomes an early "remove resource restrictions" strategy to capture one.

Putting all the AMMO(or more) in one place will make them get disabled faster but won't fix them hanging around after they are no longer viable , the entire core would have to be ammo and the whole thing would disappear once you hit it, would be cool to watch but not very practical. Removing the redundant Ai or putting them all in one place will, but that open them back up to getting one shot or captured .
The animal will not sacrifice the part for the whole.
Reply

#7
(2018-11-16, 01:26 AM)BKCXb7 Wrote: I think it's just the way they are built compared to everything else.

The game is balanced in such a way that we have powerful weapons that chew thru everything , so everything dies or is rendered harmless within a few minutes.,things that aren't gets complaint threads posted about them.

The large OW ships are huge blocks of empty metal, break their defenses(missile or  EMP), strip their detection, strip  their guns, than wait.....and wait

There is 2 reasons for this:

AMMO spoofing- they put a few barrels everywhere to keep it from chaining , and since we are stuck with the Ai going for the ammo we have to wait while our craft punch hundreds of holes in them trying to kill every ammo barrel

multiple Ai- they use more Ais than what is needed to keep lucky single shots from killing huge expensive ships, which sets up the problem of them hanging around way longer than they are viable.

The first problem is more telling of a weakness in the Ai/detection system.   If the player knows about ammo spoofing , he can use it against everything and there is nothing they can do, if something else uses ammo spoofing there is nothing the player can do because the Ai always goes for the Ammo. I see alot of people who are annoyed by this lack of control or choice. most of those people want center of mass back which has it own set of problems. The option to choose different weapons going after different things would be  ideal.

The second problem is only seen in the large OW ships, the little ones die just like everything else. I think this was originally done to keep the large OW ships from being captured early on  in the campaign , even though there were plenty of other limitations keeping the player from using them(or wanting to use them) they just cost so much when you scrap them , it kinda becomes an early "remove resource restrictions" strategy to capture one.  

Putting all the AMMO(or more) in one place will make them get disabled faster but won't fix them hanging around after they are no longer viable , the entire core would have to be ammo and the whole thing would disappear once you hit it, would be cool to watch but not very practical.  Removing the redundant Ai or putting them all in one place will, but that open them back up to getting one shot or captured .

Yes, i agree. The problem is that they hang around long after they have lost all guns and detection, just a mountain of armor with AI somewhere in the middle. Although i don't think designs should be created to be hard to capture. I feel that boarding and capturing is currently akin to cheating (cause AI doesn't attack the player) so if the player chooses to board, its his/her choice, no need to have tons of mainframes to prevent that.
Also maybe instead of several small groups of ammo barrels maybe there should 1 huge 1 next to the AI? So that is it chain-reacts, the ship is out? Large OW ships have plenty of armor as it is. If we arrange this armor to cover 1 central point, the ship will still stay quite tough.
Reply

#8
Yeah, I agree with this, mostly - I have noticed that engagements get pretty boring once you hit OW, since you get about 60 seconds of actual combat followed five to ten minutes of rolling RNG.

There's some logic to this - OW is basically a gear check on your designs so that when fighting LH and WF you're not going to get completely wiped out by designs you can't even damage.

But you could make OW ships difficult to kill without making them tedious to sink. Like other folks have said, having more ammo placed in more places would help.
Reply

#9
This thread seems to be based on several misunderstandings, and a perspective of building player vehicles for personal taste rather than maximum effectiveness.

Regarding the latter, it is entirely possible to build a boat that will kill a Kingstead in under 60 seconds without even using the more advanced systems such as lasers or PACs. If the player chooses not to build such a vehicle, however, that does not therefore mean that the Kingstead is built wrong. "I don't feel like making something that can easily kill the Kingstead, so please change it so that the things I want to build can kill it faster." We really can't work with that.

For the rest of it, you need to understand that there is a separation between the people who build the campaign vehicles you fight, and the people who implement game balance. Many vehicles, including the Kingstead, were created years ago. At the point where a vehicle is initially created, it is naturally built to operate with the game systems that exist at that time. As game development goes on and things change, various people have to go back and update the older vehicles to adapt to the new systems. This will be done by different people at different times, for different reasons: sometimes a change will break vehicles and cause them to simply not work properly; other times, new systems will make existing vehicles obsolete; and occasionally a thorough overhaul will be done to implement newer design standards and styles or to adhere to changed faction rules. Almost everyone who does this either is or started out as a volunteer from the community, and each different person does things their own way. We even make mistakes from time to time. It is rare that someone fixing a problem now, would know what the original builder of a vehicle had planned for it if they didn't document it thoroughly. The result of all this is that there is no single, great plan for every aspect of a vehicle combining to work a certain way. We can certainly try to do that, but even small changes to a vehicle can have unintended effects, and updates to the game itself will change how different aspects of a design come together to affect the overall experience of fighting against it.

For the player, all this really means is that if you find that you regularly end up with all the weapons stripped from a castle ship and need to spend several minutes pounding it until it dies from low health, it's as much the result of how you play as how it was built. Keep in mind that we who build and maintain the faction vehicles are far more limited in what we can do than the player is, so you can and should try different things if it's not not going as smoothly as you'd like. It's going to be a lot faster to adapt your boat to beat a faction vehicle rather than expecting the vehicles to be changed to match your play style. There's too many different play styles and too few of us to constantly redesign everything.
Reply

#10
(2018-11-16, 07:45 PM)PualWall Wrote: Yeah, I agree with this, mostly - I have noticed that engagements get pretty boring once you hit OW, since you get about 60 seconds of actual combat followed five to ten minutes of rolling RNG.

There's some logic to this - OW is basically a gear check on your designs so that when fighting LH and WF you're not going to get completely wiped out by designs you can't even damage.

But you could make OW ships difficult to kill without making them tedious to sink.  Like other folks have said, having more ammo placed in more places would help.

ammo, at the very least, won't have any affect.  1m steel is sufficient containment for most magazines and more than 1m, as with most castle ships, will totally absorb the damage of even the largest magazines with little to no damage to the vehicle, especially that given large magazines the middle boxes are too far from the walls to deal any damage.

I'd argue that, a solution is to, in fact, make the OW ships MORE durable.  The biggest issue i have with them is that most of the weapons have 1m, maybe 2m of steel armor and many of those blocks are not beams due to the aesthetic shapes  i'm sure it is possible to shave some blocks off internally to up-armor the turrets or to make more of the small secondary weapons proper, below-deck constructs with the turret cap almost entirely armor and the newer heavy barrels. 

That all said, there are a few types of weapons that deal particularly large amounts of damage to them:

-Sabot cannons
-any torpedoes, but particularly the new large ones
-Crams
-Large caliber APS
-Laser lances and PACs when player aimed for AI sniping (they also tend to deal with the 1 ammo barrel problem much better than other options.)
-melee weapons: removing dead capitols is probably the only legitimate, combat effective use for <500m rapid fire pacs, drills, rams, and the laser cutters, everything else tends to risk the attacker at least as much as the defender.
-Nukes
-top attack munitions, most of these vessels are not nearly as well armored vertically.

generally, there are few places in these vessels with armor more than 2m thick, their armor is the vessel's shear volume compared to the vital components as well as the number of the bulkheads rather than their quality.  What this means is that any weapon that can do one of the following:
-rapidly kill single steel beams (eg sabot MG)
-project damage over a large volume (Frag, HESH, large volume HE, etc)
-High AP, High Alpha linear weapons (lasers/PACs) (flood compartments, and snipe components regardless of armor thickness)

in particular large volume HE can usually touch enough surfaces when detonated internally to deal very close to it's max theoretical damage while the (oddly) light armor stacking doesn't mitigate it as heavily as one might think. The new missiles, for example, will knock massive holes in a kingstead or bulwark
-Do not bring forth an argument as fact that can be disproven with a 10 minute Google search.
Reply



Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread:
1 Guest(s)