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Age of Sail Broadsiding warship Joust

#1
Welcome one and all.

In an effort to spur on my Imperium age of Sail CC and raise some interest in a niche rarely explored in FtD, I'd like to host a tournament using only Sailing ships or early steam and sail powered ironclads from the crimean war era.

First off though, I must add as an disclaimer that this is the first such event I host, and I'm quite woefull with balancing things as the players of my houserule'd tabletop RPG campaigns will readily tell you  Sleepy Tongue 

As such, some points are open for debate.

Setup

The tournament will have several size/class categories you may submit different designs to. Otherwise, as we might expect, everyone will be trying to bring the biggest and most overgunned possible 1st rates to the table. 

The ship categories are based roughly on the Napoleonic British Royal navies rating system.
Rating system

You may submit ships to as many categories as you want, but if you participate it would be appreciated if you submitted to more than one design class/categorie.

The open Categories are as follows: Sloops of war, Frigates, 3rd rate ship of the line, 1st rate ship of the line.

Sloops may have an armament of up to 18 guns with a single gun deck max, and may have up to a sixth of that armament as bow or stern chasers. A sloop has an RP budget of up to 30k RP, and may pack a maximum of 6 repair bots. (equivalent of a starter ship in the actual CC)

Frigates must have an armament of 20-35 guns, and may possibly have up to two gun decks. A sixth of that armament may be used as bow or stern chasers or casemate guns. A frigate has an RP budget of max 55K resources, and may have maximally 12 repair bots. If designing 19th century ironclad ships, you may use casemated turret layouts such as in the Témeraire and Audacious class of ironclads for up to 6 gunsor experimental/fantasy designs

3rd rate Ships of the line must have 60-80 guns, and may possibly have up to two gun decks. up to 8 guns of that armament may be use for chasers, and and up to 6 guns may be mounted in up to three turrets using aproved layout shemes (see below) or up to 8 in casemates (see above) if building ironclads or experimental/fantasy designs. the RP budget for 3rd rates is 100k RP, and they may have up to 20 repair bots.

1st rate ships of the line must have at least 100 guns, and may have up to three gun decks. up to 10 guns of the armament may be used for bow or stern chasers, and another 8 guns may be mounted in up to three turrets using aproved layout shemes (see below) or up to 10 in casemates (see above) if building ironclads or experimental/fantasy designs. the RP budget for 1st rates is 195K RP, and they may have up to 30 repair bots. 1st rates may use up to 8 Lams nodes

Banned blocks and general rules[/font]

Unavailable blocks are: Lua boxes, tactical nukes, offensive laser components, and defensive laser components in ships other than 1st rates. Jets, large and small and custom, ion thrusters large and small, dediblades and heliblades, fuel engines, railgun components, aimpoint cards, aerial ai cards and all missile items are banned. Spin block clipping and cheese is banned, unless in advocated circumstances of purely cosmetic usage. Simple weapons other than puckle guns (autocannons) and large cannons are dissallowed.

Furthermore, PACs may be used, but only in pagan/mana/fantasy style ships (ie, a sailing cathedral fortress with a wizards tower on it between two masts would be eligible for Pacs), but they may not have a battery consumption per shot upwards of 10k per second of recharge pause (1s=10k, 10s=100k). PACs may not use the emp setting. Preferably, EMP shells are not to be used, unless disruptors for busting shields. Similarly, Gravram shells are banned. You may only use propellors and huge propellors and sail blocks and oars/paddles as propulsion of any kind (no recoil/gravram power) Propellors may be use with general purpose PIDs set to roll, altitude, and pitch. Hydrofoils are not banned, but limitid use is advisable.

In addition, The novel control+spin block based broadsiding "ai" method is not to be used, and AI naval cards must have their broadside ranges to be upward of 550 meters (unless building ramming galleys or the like), and below 1000 meters in any case. Spawnsticks are not permitted, and the armoury/arsenal of your ship must be stocked firmly inside the outline of the primary hull of your ship. Various engagement setups deal with starting positions, see below.

Preferably, when building non-ironclad ships, the outer layer of armour above the water line should not obviously be metal, or shouldn't be metal. shields are usable, but when stacked may not be above strenght 6.5. Shields on the bow or stern may not be layered and may not be above strength 3 (raking fire)

Ships may have a maximum volume count of 19.5k. Ships may not be wider than 40 m, longer than 200m, and must in addition answer to the limits imposed on their category as a whole. APS gun fire rates may not exceed 12rnds/ minute, unless they are casemate or chaser mounted gatling guns with calibres below 30mm, or disguised as repeater ballistas. OR, unless the APS gun in question is a fixed hull "fire hose" gun using yellow tracers, muzzle velocity no higher than 150m/s and range no higher than 450meters as a greek fire galley style vessel.


Engagement Setups

Each submitted design will be put through various combat scenarios with other submitted designs of the same category. During each of these engagements, ships will have acces to thrice their cost in resources to use for steam boilers/ repairs/ammo processors.

1) 1v1 head on in calm weather 
2) 1v1 broadside start in stormy seas.
3) 2v2 line abrest in calm weather
4) 2v2 line astern in stormy seas
5) 2v1 between winners of 2 succesing size categories in stormy seas.
6) lineup with campaign designs from Imperium, two stages, head on in stormy seas

Next to simply using a traditional lineup sheme, I am also trying to balance out a point award system to be able to offer abstract relative comparison between categories.
Points alloted:
the amount of alloted rp budget available/the rp budget spent squared and rounded down. (building economically)
5 for beating first generic lineup, 10 for beating second generic lineup (sse below) (capability to beat known meanies)
10 for being first in a category, 7 for being second. 5 for being third, 3,2,1 for places after. (regular ranking)
the amount of start resource in battle/resources expanded in battle squared, and rounded down. (fighting efficiently)
4 points for each battle won.

Especially the points division is up for debate ,as this still needs fine-tuning.

The lineup with generic designs

Sloops will face of against the Zuid Limburg Zaandam first. then against the Zuid Limburg Hermelijn
Frigates will face of against the Oikos Polyphemos first. then against the generic Heavy galleon
3rd Rates will face of against the Manduelan Tercio first. Then against the Zuid Limburg Kanselier
1st rates will face of against the Zuid Limburg Huzaar, and then against the Habsburg Panzerkriche
(see addendum for images, campaign for designs)

Addendum

1 campaign faceoff designs, only tier two because of image limit.

Hermelijn
[Image: LaO90eA.jpg]

Heavy Galleon
[Image: G1shFwA.jpg]

Kanselier
[Image: uz6JUU1.jpg]

Panzerkirche
[Image: FZmjyZN.jpg]

Permissible Turret layouts for ironclads and fantasts

[Image: k5j1egY.jpg]HMS Inflexible (kudos for assymetry as always)
[Image: Lxx44Hg.jpg]HMS Captain (between decks)
[Image: ElcNryc.jpg]French Océan, turrets mounted into broadsides
[Image: TlOf6F6.jpg]French Formidable, turrets on center line between masts, on same level.

Deadline: I presume Halloween will do, as I will then have some spare time in the following days to feature the tourney.
Also, bonus points for making something Original and good looking.

And as an edit: If you are building an ancient age style galley warship, you may have an additional two turrets (ie, towers) to mount weaponry conform other demands. This means that on a "sloop" or "frigate"you could mount a small siege tower or the like, for aesthetic and incentive purposes; While a first rate superbattleship galley could have 5 siege towers.

by extension, the general rules for western broadsiding ships also go for korean turtle ships, junks, bunes, Xebecs, Dhows and other non-western broadsiding ships.
Imperium Age of Sail Campaign Custom Campaign Dev Idea

Check it out here!

- The Best Cello Concerto of all time - No, It's not Elgar's
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#2
Great idea!

I haven't fully wrapped my head around the rules but some initial thoughts:
- why do you want to limit the controls to Naval AI only? There are other good alternatives such as Air AI and spinblock. I've seen people using some useful techniques such as turning to show the "fresh side".
- you might consider a component per gun (and global) limit for aps guns rather than rpm limits
- are you sure you want shields in a sail tournament?
primum non nocere
___________________________________
my tournaments:
★★★ Sea Encounters - Battleships! ★★★
★★★ Sea Encounters - Light Cruisers ★★★
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#3
Interested in this. Have no experience in such builds, but isn't it time to learn?
Makes things.
magic cheese must burn?
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#4
I'm with harnas on all of his points, the gun strength in particular. While 5s is a fairly slow reload, it still means that sloops could pack a heavier punch than frigates, and maybe with only a few guns.

I didn't really understand the restrictions too well, mostly with regards to turret layouts, so I suggest you mention that you can check designs in advance of the tournament's due date to check compliance.
(2017-04-20, 06:54 PM)Hikari Wrote: I made something that has an impact of a type 1a supernova. The projectile already breaks laws of physics by going way past the speed of light.

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#5
Alright, I have several suggestions here:

1) since this is your first tournament, and since I think the first tournament even going for this type of Age of Sail + fantasy + experimental designs that has been done, the scope should probably be reduced a bit. A few of us probably have some ideas of how balance might play out here, but we won't really be sure until the battles start or building starts, so it would probably be good to pick only one class of ship to work with for the first run of the tournament. Likely one of the smaller ones, since that will make building an entry less time-consuming and easier so there will be more entrants.

2) You've provided basically no downsides for turreted ironclad ships, so those will be the optimized realistic ships that show up to make full use of the options provided

3) Allowing PACs at all in a tournament that also allows shields basically requires the construction of PACs. Even with extreme limitations on them the ability to simply bypass shields entirely and do direct damage makes them the ideal weapon

4) Restricting control only to Naval AI is extremely frustrating for anyone who has built tournament entries before. Nearly every one of us that has used non-Naval AI control has done so because we've seen some fight where a ship won't bring all its guns to bear because the Naval AI is stupid and we're working around it.

5) Points for spending less resources either in battle or in the design is kinda silly. I get the point, but all the winners are going to get flat 0s in both of those categories. Also, the way they're currently set up unless someone spends less than ~70.7% of the resources they're gonna get 1 point from that regardless and giving up that much in resources is basically accepting defeat

6) It's not immediately obvious from the rules that they only need to look like sailing ships and that any other form of propulsion is allowed. That's probably something to make obvious, since dealing with sails for propulsion can be finicky.

7) General agreement with Harnas on using component limits for guns rather than RPM limits. RPM limits basically kneecaps smaller caliber guns in favor of larger ones because they'll get to have the same RoF, but the larger caliber gun can throw bigger shells downrange each shot.

8) In general, organize and clean up the rules. Remove things that aren't really needed, and clarify the rules; for example, I can't tell if the limits on 150 m/s apply to all guns or only to the "Greek Fire" type weapon, and I'm not even sure if it's a good idea to have that as a separate weapon. Tables and lists are helpful here. Remember that people building designs are going to have to come here frequently to double-check the rules to make sure their design is built to the requirements and they'll want to find things quickly.

Anyway, the concept sounds interesting, but right now the rules are extremely complex yet still result in a trivially obvious meta. Everybody's gonna be building only fantasy ships to get their PAC on.
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#6
(2018-09-16, 08:35 PM)harnas1977 Wrote: Great idea!

I haven't fully wrapped my head around the rules but some initial thoughts:
- why do you want to limit the controls to Naval AI only? There are other good alternatives such as Air AI and spinblock. I've seen people using some useful techniques such as turning to show the "fresh side".
- you might consider a component per gun (and global)  limit for aps guns rather than rpm limits
- are you sure you want shields in a sail tournament?

This is the control layout I use for all designs in my own CC and it runs fine just about all the time. I'm not entirely on top of the other options, and I would prefer if people would stick to stock AI's.

especially, and I totally forgot to mention this, since I might select some winners to be integrated with credits to the designer as a sort of award.

Perhaps then, a limit to the amount of autoloaders and clips? How would you suggest to do this?

Yes, I would like shields. All designs in my CC use them to some extend, for the simple reason that things without shields just die too easily, too quickly to any kind of barrage. Using shields forces the hand somewhat and limits some options, but consider that without shields and no APS or CRAM holds barred and using mass fire broadside vessels everything would just evaporate. I've been there  Big Grin
Imperium Age of Sail Campaign Custom Campaign Dev Idea

Check it out here!

- The Best Cello Concerto of all time - No, It's not Elgar's
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#7
(2018-09-16, 08:53 PM)MizarLuke Wrote: I'm with harnas on all of his points, the gun strength in particular. While 5s is a fairly slow reload, it still means that sloops could pack a heavier punch than frigates, and maybe with only a few guns.

I didn't really understand the restrictions too well, mostly with regards to turret layouts, so I suggest you mention that you can check designs in advance of the tournament's due date to check compliance.

Well, I could limit the amount of autoloaders or clips permitted per ship. Or disallow them altogether so you can only have guns with shells fed right into the firing piece. Up for debate. As said, this is my first try at organising something of interest, so it was Always going to need tweaking. And I'm happy to take suggestions  Smile 

Yes, I guess a few weeks before the deadline I could take temporary reviews to see if anything is out of order and deliver feedback. But due to academics I'm on a pretty tight shedule, and when I actually next would have a big chunk of time I wanted to do the tourney. So this might take some coordinating. Three quarters of the way, second half of october might work...
Imperium Age of Sail Campaign Custom Campaign Dev Idea

Check it out here!

- The Best Cello Concerto of all time - No, It's not Elgar's
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#8
(2018-09-16, 10:03 PM)ferram4 Wrote: Alright, I have several suggestions here:

1) since this is your first tournament, and since I think the first tournament even going for this type of Age of Sail + fantasy + experimental designs that has been done, the scope should probably be reduced a bit.  A few of us probably have some ideas of how balance might play out here, but we won't really be sure until the battles start or building starts, so it would probably be good to pick only one class of ship to work with for the first run of the tournament.  Likely one of the smaller ones, since that will make building an entry less time-consuming and easier so there will be more entrants.

2) You've provided basically no downsides for turreted ironclad ships, so those will be the optimized realistic ships that show up to make full use of the options provided

3) Allowing PACs at all in a tournament that also allows shields basically requires the construction of PACs.  Even with extreme limitations on them the ability to simply bypass shields entirely and do direct damage makes them the ideal weapon

4) Restricting control only to Naval AI is extremely frustrating for anyone who has built tournament entries before.  Nearly every one of us that has used non-Naval AI control has done so because we've seen some fight where a ship won't bring all its guns to bear because the Naval AI is stupid and we're working around it.

5) Points for spending less resources either in battle or in the design is kinda silly.  I get the point, but all the winners are going to get flat 0s in both of those categories.  Also, the way they're currently set up unless someone spends less than ~70.7% of the resources they're gonna get 1 point from that regardless and giving up that much in resources is basically accepting defeat

6) It's not immediately obvious from the rules that they only need to look like sailing ships and that any other form of propulsion is allowed.  That's probably something to make obvious, since dealing with sails for propulsion can be finicky.

7) General agreement with Harnas on using component limits for guns rather than RPM limits.  RPM limits basically kneecaps smaller caliber guns in favor of larger ones because they'll get to have the same RoF, but the larger caliber gun can throw bigger shells downrange each shot.

8) In general, organize and clean up the rules.  Remove things that aren't really needed, and clarify the rules; for example, I can't tell if the limits on 150 m/s apply to all guns or only to the "Greek Fire" type weapon, and I'm not even sure if it's a good idea to have that as a separate weapon.  Tables and lists are helpful here.  Remember that people building designs are going to have to come here frequently to double-check the rules to make sure their design is built to the requirements and they'll want to find things quickly.

Anyway, the concept sounds interesting, but right now the rules are extremely complex yet still result in a trivially obvious meta.  Everybody's gonna be building only fantasy ships to get their PAC on.

Replying in order...


1. Perhaps frigates or third rates more specifically then. But sloops and 1st rates will Always be welcome for those willing to take on that challenge and the stock builds.
2. perhaps mounting guns in casemates or traversable turrets should take up a multitude of gun slots then?
3. Perhaps PACs should then also severely limit the total allowed armament? Or their power budget limited more severely?
4. Naval ai has Always done fine for me, but I guess the stakes and performance demands are different and higher in tournament play. Then I guess I'll still want to limit to a few possible alternatives to keep the field somewhat even in that regard.
5. as I said, terrible with balancing here  Sleepy Up for debate, up for being scrapped.
6. Sails on their own won't get much done. that's why paddles and propelors and oar application are still allowed.
7. as said above.
8. yes, 150m/s is only for greek fire type fixed hull mounted APS guns. I have a few fire barges in the CC. They're rudy fun. And enough people complain about wanting flamethrowers, so eh  Blush 

I suddenly remember to still list engagement ranges and stuff. Let me find my notes.
Imperium Age of Sail Campaign Custom Campaign Dev Idea

Check it out here!

- The Best Cello Concerto of all time - No, It's not Elgar's
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#9
(2018-09-17, 02:37 PM)Carolus Magnus Wrote:
(2018-09-16, 08:35 PM)harnas1977 Wrote: Great idea!

I haven't fully wrapped my head around the rules but some initial thoughts:
- why do you want to limit the controls to Naval AI only? There are other good alternatives such as Air AI and spinblock. I've seen people using some useful techniques such as turning to show the "fresh side".
- you might consider a component per gun (and global)  limit for aps guns rather than rpm limits
- are you sure you want shields in a sail tournament?

This is the control layout I use for all designs in my own CC and it runs fine just about all the time. I'm not entirely on top of the other options, and I would prefer if people would stick to stock AI's.

especially, and I totally forgot to mention this, since I might select some winners to be integrated with credits to the designer as a sort of award.

Perhaps then, a limit to the amount of autoloaders and clips? How would you suggest to do this?

Yes, I would like shields. All designs in my CC use them to some extend, for the simple reason that things without shields just die too easily, too quickly to any kind of barrage. Using shields forces the hand somewhat and limits some options, but consider that without shields and no APS or CRAM holds barred and using mass fire broadside vessels everything would just evaporate. I've been there  Big Grin

Ok, if you need to keep the AI commands such as fleet move etc. than mandating normal AI makes sense. This is not the end of the world to use it, but some would really love to be able to show the other side the opponent in duels. Not a show stopper though.

Have a look at SE rules - I use pure component count that is displayed conveniently displayed in the APS tooltip.

I dislike shields in their current form, but it you wish consistency with your CC, that is understandable.

(2018-09-17, 02:42 PM)Carolus Magnus Wrote:
(2018-09-16, 08:53 PM)MizarLuke Wrote: I'm with harnas on all of his points, the gun strength in particular. While 5s is a fairly slow reload, it still means that sloops could pack a heavier punch than frigates, and maybe with only a few guns.

I didn't really understand the restrictions too well, mostly with regards to turret layouts, so I suggest you mention that you can check designs in advance of the tournament's due date to check compliance.

Well, I could limit the amount of autoloaders or clips permitted per ship. Or disallow them altogether so you can only have guns with shells fed right into the firing piece. Up for debate. As said, this is my first try at organising something of interest, so it was Always going to need tweaking. And I'm happy to take suggestions  Smile 

Yes, I guess a few weeks before the deadline I could take temporary reviews to see if anything is out of order and deliver feedback. But due to academics I'm on a pretty tight shedule, and when I actually next would have a big chunk of time I wanted to do the tourney. So this might take some coordinating. Three quarters of the way, second half of october might work...

Component count is simple and easy to check by host. Only direct fed would work, but would limit variety imho.
primum non nocere
___________________________________
my tournaments:
★★★ Sea Encounters - Battleships! ★★★
★★★ Sea Encounters - Light Cruisers ★★★
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