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Sea Encounters: Ironclads [Discussion]

#31
(2018-08-08, 03:47 AM)Captain_Fox Wrote: I'd love to force the ships to have full interiors, but that's not really feasible with 35k....  Right? 

HEY NUTTERCHAP! How much resource was spent on those full interior ironclads?

Oh, if not too many people wanna enter this, I'm tempted to allow up to three ships/fleets as long as they're visibly different, eg: Casemate, Monitor, Broadsider. Or vastly different sized guns and turret placement and such.

HEY CAPTAIN_FOX! The blueprints were attached to the post so you could easily discern their cost yourself Wink

I do believe a full-interior ironclad with working things and all is feasible for 35K... just dont expect to go any bigger than original Monitor/Virginia, which is like 55 meter long.

Question: 1m metal + 1m wood is allowed as armor thickness for a wall right?
2m metal + 3m wood not, I presume, so how about
1m metal + 1m wood + 1m airgap + 1m metal + 1m wood? It are separate walls, you know....

CRAM CRASH COURSE

(There is) A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
-Ecclesiastes 3:3
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#32
I have a 10.2 m/s design ready (11k materials, 24k resources for repair).. Any chance you could look it over to make sure its fully rule compliant?

Also some.questions (on phone so bear with me)
My ship is monitor inspired so the deck is at water level. As such, I didn't know if I could make the deck out of metal as it would mean that incoming shells would be hitting a 5 layer thick piece of metal

On that note, can we have multiple separated layers of m metal or are we limited to 1m of metal in any direction? I'd like to make a metal container for AI inside the main belt armour

Are repair bots allowed? Any limits?

Solid shot.. Can we use AP cap? Or only the solid shell module?

Any consensus on engine type? Currently running on two Ecomax Engines, 200 power.

Do we need detection equipment?

And finally, what does 235 ammo location mean?

Much thanks, Eggs
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#33
How much more damage does 305mm HE compared to 205mm? I see shadow of a problem in caliber rule...

Speaking of guns, as far as I know none of the ironclads had more than two cannons in a turret, and some had only one.

Aside from that, Eggs triggered my idea generator.
Headless ammo! We may do something with it.
Like allow replacing the head with another HE or allowing additional customizer in exchange for having that thing headless?
Makes things.
The fastest thing in the universe is sluggish... Years, decades, centuries from star to star.
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#34
(2018-08-08, 12:51 PM)DraWay Wrote: How much more damage does 305mm HE compared to 205mm? I see shadow of a problem in caliber rule...

Speaking of guns, as far as I know none of the ironclads had more than two cannons in a turret, and some had only one.

Aside from that, Eggs triggered my idea generator.
Headless ammo! We may do something with it.
Like allow replacing the head with another HE or allowing additional customizer in exchange for having that thing headless?

Well... why switch out an HE head for a full HE block? That's nothing but a downgrade in speed/AP/trajectory. I dont think special allowances with regards to usable shell components is going to work.


It is true AFAIK that there were never more than 2 guns in an Ironclad turret. But why not? If you make a 3, 8 or 12-gun turret... all you really do is put all your eggs in one giant basket.

But shell components... you know, one of the biggest problems we face here is uberpenetration AP shot. Ban Sabot blocks ofc, but maybe also do something with the ratio of GP vs projectile modules used in the ammo customizer? I do believe shells should be of historical type.
Grape shot/cartouche/cannister --> fragmentation components with impact or timed fuse, set to disperse 180°.
Solid shot --> ap/composite head with solid blocks only.
Shell --> HE head and HE blocks, incl impact fuse.
Heavy shell --> basically APHE with pendepth
Hot Shot --> sadly no fire in this game, so its incendiary proeprties cannot be portrayed.

Perhaps allow only 1 HE module per shell, and the rest of the boom must come from flak. Flak leaves a black cloud behind, a bit like gunpowder explosion. I think that is fitting for this tournament.
Do note that back in the day, there were 3 fusing options: no fuse, impact fuse (pendepth, time after impact to 0.00) and timed fuse. The timed fuse was set by cutting the fuse short. The fire of the propellant charge would then start the fuse.

Lastly, those old shells were rarely longer than 2 diameters of the barrel. Round shot, of course, only 1 diameter. Only weird stuff like bar shot and chain shot was longer. maybe that can be imp[lemented as well... though armor should indeed not exceed 1m metal+1m wood. Maybe also allow 1/2m metal, 3m wood? Merrimac'/Virginia's armor was much like that, to ratio.

Maybe sabot can be used exclusively to make bar shot: a solid block, followed by some sabot bits, then a solid block (or 2) again to form a dog bone-looking thing. I wouldnt know why you'd want that kind of shell here, but since it's historical, it should be possible Tongue

CRAM CRASH COURSE

(There is) A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
-Ecclesiastes 3:3
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#35
@NutterChap
I thought there was rule about "ap cap only", so you could have double boom for closer range, but oops, there is none.
Though there is rule about 1m shells, which makes 3 or 4 components for max caliber, 2 or 3 for shell.
Your variant looks nice. Somewhere earlier Captain already wrote about allowing only solid and aphe with 3m pendepth, so it probably fits. So, state by rule fixed variety of ammunition? And there will be no coolers... So, with close ranges in mind, it'll be most efficient to use single gunpowder. Low shell speeds are "historical"... BUT.
Then, guns performance-wise can vary only by calibers and number.
Again bringing up question about damage scaling. Because you currently can have 4 305mm, but 14 205mm guns!

And definitely nope for sabots. And for heat, HESH and other technomagic. And for aimpoint "ai&ammo" targeting, probably.
Makes things.
The fastest thing in the universe is sluggish... Years, decades, centuries from star to star.
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#36
(2018-08-08, 11:46 AM)NutterChap Wrote:
(2018-08-08, 03:47 AM)Captain_Fox Wrote: I'd love to force the ships to have full interiors, but that's not really feasible with 35k....  Right? 

HEY NUTTERCHAP! How much resource was spent on those full interior ironclads?

Oh, if not too many people wanna enter this, I'm tempted to allow up to three ships/fleets as long as they're visibly different, eg: Casemate, Monitor, Broadsider. Or vastly different sized guns and turret placement and such.

HEY CAPTAIN_FOX! The blueprints were attached to the post so you could easily discern their cost yourself Wink

I do believe a full-interior ironclad with working things and all is feasible for 35K... just dont expect to go any bigger than original Monitor/Virginia, which is like 55 meter long.

Question: 1m metal + 1m wood is allowed as armor thickness for a wall right?
2m metal + 3m wood not, I presume, so how about
1m metal + 1m wood + 1m airgap + 1m metal + 1m wood? It are separate walls, you know....

I know they were, I'm too lazy to DL them right now. Tongue


You can have at most 1m M+1m W+ 1m W. Then yeah, airgap, and more.... Actually. I know how to fix that, that fits with the walkable interior. These early ships didn't have airgaps and such, just proper rooms. Sooo. Any airgaps must either be a hallway, which works as a 1m airgap, or rooms with a minimum of 3x3. And there needs to be doors connecting the rooms to the halls! Doesn't need to be anything inside them if you don't want, but yeah. It'd be nice to suddenly see the captain's quarters get opened up by a lucky shot. XD

@Eggs Benedict:

The deck doesn't need to be metal, but what do you mean 5 layers thick? Is that where the ammo is stored? Or like a corner where the hull meets the deck? Not too sure when it comes to repair bots...I'm thinking 1-2 could be allowed as a repair crew, but if there's steam engines, that'll eat into the time you've got to go. Wink 

A new rule is that you can have multiple layers of metal if they're 'rooms' (minimum of 3x3) or 'halls' (can be 1x1 but must connect to all the rooms along the way by doors). And there can't be 15 halls in a row as just halls. >> I'm watching you lot. Oh, don't forget that the metal can be backed by two layers of wood!

It's the AP cap head, since it's most shell like. Engine type... uh. I'm really tempted to go with pure cylinder engines like SE:BB did if there are fuel engines, otherwise it'll be large steam engines. Dunno for sure yet, still needing to figure that out. As it says in the rules "Testing needed" XD

Also don't know about detection systems. I REALLY want to make it 0.0 detection with cameras as the only things, because that was the only thing back then, and it shouldn't make as much of a difference with close range fights...

The 2-3-5 ammo location is the number of stores. So 2 spots for storing ammo, 3 spots for storing ammo, 5 spots for storing ammo. We're still figuring that out.

@Draway 1:

It's a fair bit more, I think. Remember how 500mm seems to always beat 400mm? It's another 100mm difference, so I think it's fair. But I need to perform.... !!SCIENCE!! to figure that out.

Also, really the only ships that'll have the double digit number guns are gonna be casemate ships/broadsiders. Turrets are far more expensive to make, so any ship with 7 double barrel 205mm turrets isn't gonna have much armor on the turrets or on itself. And will probably be either quite small, or quite easy to penetrate.

I know, but that's where either multiple turrets, and/or the fantasy element comes into play. A ship designed to carry a 36 gun turret is gonna be SLOOOOOW. And explosive because of all the ammo needed for the 36 95mm rapid ROF cannons it's carrying.

Ehhh. Headless ammo is kinda dumb... A head has the same effect as the standard piece, just more aerodynamic.

@Nutterchap:

Ironclads didn't really carry the chain shot and stuff. The 1860s ones carried some canister shot (could be done by a timed fuse set to 0.0 seconds so it explodes as soon as it's out of the barrel), but other wise it was solid or shell. Hence the solid-APCap, and then the pen-depth HE-APCap shells. And why it's set to a maximum of 1m long, unless it's direct fed and to get 1m long you need a one-piece customizer. Then you can breach juuuuust into 2m with a proper 2-piece customizer.

As I said before, 2m of wood IS allowed behind a layer of metal. Tongue 

If I'm gonna allow sabot for a bar shot, it will be a single piece between an equal amount of solid on either side. With no cap. Because barshot was supposed to spin. And that'll keep the sabot from having as much of an effect.

I like the idea of the HE with flak, but I'm not too sure that'll be super useful... I suppose if you penetrate, the flak can hurt the lesser pieces... Will need to test that.

@Draway 2:

The only cap allowed is APCap, to allow for the fact the first explosive shells were just hollowed out normal shells. I'll allow the shells that are capable of fitting 3 shell pieces after the GP and penfuse to have it be solid-HExwhatever-APCap to mimic that fact. And to help with the lower caliber's lack of inherit penetration.

And yeah...Gonna need to do testing...

@Anyone:

If anyone wants to help with this testing, I'll be happy to see the results and adjust accordingly!

For ship inspiration! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battleships

Just make sure it's 1860s-1870s (1879 IS allowed)!
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#37
For detection, set autodetect to a level where gun aimed at CoM from 500m have good chance to hit a ship. Then if your detection is destroyed, you'll aim in general direction of enemy and still hit sometimes.
...may also add spinblocked camera inside the hull where gunners were to mimic "someone peeking out of gunport"
Makes things.
The fastest thing in the universe is sluggish... Years, decades, centuries from star to star.
Reply

#38
(2018-08-08, 06:58 PM)DraWay Wrote: For detection, set autodetect to a level where gun aimed at CoM from 500m have good chance to hit a ship. Then if your detection is destroyed, you'll aim in general direction of enemy and still hit sometimes.
...may also add spinblocked camera inside the hull where gunners were to mimic "someone peeking out of gunport"

Hmm. Good idea! I think I might adjust the maximum range to 1.5k, just so the ships have time to turn around...
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#39
(2018-08-08, 06:29 PM)Captain_Fox Wrote: I know they were, I'm too lazy to DL them right now. Tongue


You can have at most 1m M+1m W+ 1m W. Then yeah, airgap, and more.... Actually. I know how to fix that, that fits with the walkable interior. These early ships didn't have airgaps and such, just proper rooms. Sooo. Any airgaps must either be a hallway, which works as a 1m airgap, or rooms with a minimum of 3x3. And there needs to be doors connecting the rooms to the halls! Doesn't need to be anything inside them if you don't want, but yeah. It'd be nice to suddenly see the captain's quarters get opened up by a lucky shot. XD

@Eggs Benedict:

The deck doesn't need to be metal, but what do you mean 5 layers thick? Is that where the ammo is stored? Or like a corner where the hull meets the deck? Not too sure when it comes to repair bots...I'm thinking 1-2 could be allowed as a repair crew, but if there's steam engines, that'll eat into the time you've got to go. Wink 

A new rule is that you can have multiple layers of metal if they're 'rooms' (minimum of 3x3) or 'halls' (can be 1x1 but must connect to all the rooms along the way by doors). And there can't be 15 halls in a row as just halls. >> I'm watching you lot. Oh, don't forget that the metal can be backed by two layers of wood!

It's the AP cap head, since it's most shell like. Engine type... uh. I'm really tempted to go with pure cylinder engines like SE:BB did if there are fuel engines, otherwise it'll be large steam engines. Dunno for sure yet, still needing to figure that out. As it says in the rules "Testing needed" XD

Also don't know about detection systems. I REALLY want to make it 0.0 detection with cameras as the only things, because that was the only thing back then, and it shouldn't make as much of a difference with close range fights...

The 2-3-5 ammo location is the number of stores. So 2 spots for storing ammo, 3 spots for storing ammo, 5 spots for storing ammo. We're still figuring that out.
> The corner where the hull meets the deck, exactly. Because it's close to the waterline a lot of shells will hit it, and to the shell, it will be like hitting an armour plate that's the width of the deck in thickness. Right now I have made the deck out of Wood to 'balance' that.. but it makes me very vulnerable to plunging fire!
> 1-2, gotcha. As someone who doesn't have any competition experience.. could you please give me a hint as to how much materials (even a rough percentage of the 35k) would be recommended for the steam engines and repairs?
>Good! 
>Okay sounds good!
>0.0 Yikes alright! Any chance of rangefinders though?
>Okay!
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#40
(2018-08-08, 07:36 PM)EggsBenedict Wrote:
(2018-08-08, 06:29 PM)Captain_Fox Wrote: I know they were, I'm too lazy to DL them right now. Tongue


You can have at most 1m M+1m W+ 1m W. Then yeah, airgap, and more.... Actually. I know how to fix that, that fits with the walkable interior. These early ships didn't have airgaps and such, just proper rooms. Sooo. Any airgaps must either be a hallway, which works as a 1m airgap, or rooms with a minimum of 3x3. And there needs to be doors connecting the rooms to the halls! Doesn't need to be anything inside them if you don't want, but yeah. It'd be nice to suddenly see the captain's quarters get opened up by a lucky shot. XD

@Eggs Benedict:

The deck doesn't need to be metal, but what do you mean 5 layers thick? Is that where the ammo is stored? Or like a corner where the hull meets the deck? Not too sure when it comes to repair bots...I'm thinking 1-2 could be allowed as a repair crew, but if there's steam engines, that'll eat into the time you've got to go. Wink 

A new rule is that you can have multiple layers of metal if they're 'rooms' (minimum of 3x3) or 'halls' (can be 1x1 but must connect to all the rooms along the way by doors). And there can't be 15 halls in a row as just halls. >> I'm watching you lot. Oh, don't forget that the metal can be backed by two layers of wood!

It's the AP cap head, since it's most shell like. Engine type... uh. I'm really tempted to go with pure cylinder engines like SE:BB did if there are fuel engines, otherwise it'll be large steam engines. Dunno for sure yet, still needing to figure that out. As it says in the rules "Testing needed" XD

Also don't know about detection systems. I REALLY want to make it 0.0 detection with cameras as the only things, because that was the only thing back then, and it shouldn't make as much of a difference with close range fights...

The 2-3-5 ammo location is the number of stores. So 2 spots for storing ammo, 3 spots for storing ammo, 5 spots for storing ammo. We're still figuring that out.
> The corner where the hull meets the deck, exactly. Because it's close to the waterline a lot of shells will hit it, and to the shell, it will be like hitting an armour plate that's the width of the deck in thickness. Right now I have made the deck out of Wood to 'balance' that.. but it makes me very vulnerable to plunging fire!
> 1-2, gotcha. As someone who doesn't have any competition experience.. could you please give me a hint as to how much materials (even a rough percentage of the 35k) would be recommended for the steam engines and repairs?
>Good! 
>Okay sounds good!
>0.0 Yikes alright! Any chance of rangefinders though?
>Okay!


1: That'll be fine. It's what it's supposed to do after all!

2: Uh...I'd suggest enough to last at least 15 minutes for a single boiler, large steam engine. Probably a little over for repairs and if you lower the amount of steam to the minimum required to run the propellers, that should be enough. I think.

5: Nope~ they didn't have range finders back then. Just guessed the distance. I think range finders, or at least good ones, were developed right around the turn of the century.



Quick edit: Quick testing says that paddlewheel rudders seem to work really, really weirdly and randomly. I've got only want to turn in one direction, zigzagging, turning super hard, and flying ships. All in the same ship. Of course that ship was hastily built... I should test it on a properly working ship like the Dragon Type 3.
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