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Sea Encounters: Ironclads [Discussion]

#11
(2018-08-06, 10:02 AM)NutterChap Wrote: Why do 'turrets' have to rotate in 1 direction continuously? Only based off of the Monitor's situation during the battle of Hampton Roads, where, due to battle damage, the mechanism could only move in 1 direction anymore and didnt stop just so the mechanism would not get any further problems? Erikson designed that turret t be able to move and stop, in both directions. No need for this strange rule.
Also, up to 1870 ships had up to 2 of those turrets, which were perfectly capable of moving in either direction and then stopping.

Spar torpedo is not something that gets launched: it is basically a bomb on a stick: I guess an ammo box with an APS shooting it would be a better simulation of that.

Also, force triple expansions team engines is OK in my opinion, even if at low burn rate. Large boiler in use per se. ACB to set burn rate higher for the first 10 seconds of the match, just to get things going.
maybe ask for 10 engine power per paddle block?

It wasn't battle damage that caused it. The donkey engine was too weak to stop amd reverse the turret in a timely mammer, so the captain told them to keep it turning in one direction and shoot when the Virginia came into view.

I know spar torps aren't launched, but there isn't an explosive on a stick aside from the nuke, which they obviously didn't have. And since spar torpedoes were put on sticks about 10m long, I think it sorts works.

Hmm. That works! Does the gun caliber stuff seem balamced?

Would making barrels be a max of 4m (not including mantlets) be too restrictive?
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#12
What effect will have a spinblock rudder made of paddles? Never tried this... Do they somehow work in this case?
Hydrofoils don't recognize spinblock angling, this one I tried. However they may be way to go if their own "angle" can be limited in speed, so no instaturns.
Didn't test spinblocked wings.

For propulsion, in normal FtD reality you need tiny engine to feed all yer propellers. Thus usual hardcaps on speed or props. Harnas did a new step with cylinder only engines, but these are still too small to be a concern for movement only application, so he also limited props.
And what I'm thinking here is next step, to somehow make cost and size of sufficient powerplant the main speed limiter, maybe even allow hacked 500% drive propeller to utilize it without spam.

Ask for power per paddle is indeed possible solution, though need some testing.
Build a boat, slap there two huge props with enough powah, add weight until it goes desired speed. Then swap propellers for paddles with 100% engine assists and add (actually working) paddleblocks until it reaches same speed. Then divide that 150(?) power by number of paddles. Or something like that.

Why exactly 1 meter shells?
Also, noodle barrels?

For spar mine, how about... NUKE?
These used stupid charge of kaboomium compared to torpedoes of the time.
NUKE, and it needs to be on a retracting stick. So if it gets hit early, all kaboomium will be applied to carrier itself.
Even if not nuke, ask for the stick.

For gun numbers and calibers... I think that mixing gunnery of sailing broadsides and the ironclads into single table isn't good idea... As isn't good mixing of wooden broadsides with ironclads in the first place. It said, ironclad made old ships obsolete, probably even more so than with the Dreadnought.
Maybe, let's focus on actual ironclads? Metal coat, heavy guns (so like 180-305mm mainly, no or minimum of pewers and no dozens of barrels), mechanical propulsion (props or paddles) as mandatory and sails as option.

And here's proposition on two main classes: casemate and turreted.

Casemate cannot have anything but AI and gun components on subobjects (excluding spar mines), and cannot have more than 2 centerline guns - one fore, one aft., and none of them can have 360deg arc, representing conventional ironclad ships of time.

Turreted can have turrets at centerline and armoured, but cannot use wood in construction (but maybe up to 1,5 meters metal?), so will be smaller and easier to sink, representing early monitor class.
Makes things.
The fastest thing in the universe is sluggish... Years, decades, centuries from star to star.
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#13
(2018-08-06, 10:02 AM)NutterChap Wrote: Why do 'turrets' have to rotate in 1 direction continuously? Only based off of the Monitor's situation during the battle of Hampton Roads, where, due to battle damage, the mechanism could only move in 1 direction anymore and didnt stop just so the mechanism would not get any further problems? Erikson designed that turret t be able to move and stop, in both directions. No need for this strange rule.
Also, up to 1870 ships had up to 2 of those turrets, which were perfectly capable of moving in either direction and then stopping.

IIUC firing during continuous rotation was normal procedure on the Monitor: its rotation mechanism had a single relatively high speed (more than 12 degrees/second), which meant that tracking a moving target was impossible and stopping it aimed at the target was extremely difficult.

That said, it was not long before turrets gained lower speeds for finer adjustment.
Allr andask.
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#14
(2018-08-06, 06:04 PM)DraWay Wrote: For gun numbers and calibers... I think that mixing gunnery of sailing broadsides and the ironclads into single table isn't good idea... As isn't good mixing of wooden broadsides with ironclads in the first place. It said, ironclad made old ships obsolete, probably even more so than with the Dreadnought.
Maybe, let's focus on actual ironclads? Metal coat, heavy guns (so like 180-305mm mainly, no or minimum of pewers and no dozens of barrels), mechanical propulsion (props or paddles) as mandatory and sails as option.

And here's proposition on two main classes: casemate and turreted.

Casemate cannot have anything but AI and gun components on subobjects (excluding spar mines), and cannot have more than 2 centerline guns - one fore, one aft., and none of them can have 360deg arc, representing conventional ironclad ships of time.

Turreted can have turrets at centerline and armoured, but cannot use wood in construction (but maybe up to 1,5 meters metal?), so will be smaller and easier to sink, representing early monitor class.
I think you have an overly-restrictive concept of ironclads. During the 1860s we have:
- Gloire: 36x164mm guns.
- HMS Warrior: 40 guns (including 26 206mm guns).
- USS New Ironsides: 18 guns (including 14 279mm guns).

While both sides of the American Civil War favored coastal ships with heavy armor and few big guns, most European ironclads were armed similarly to the immediately-preceding wooden ships. I think the existing subclasses do capture the options reasonably well: the Broadside subclass reflects the broadside ironclads with large numbers of guns with inflexible arcs; the Monitor class the monitors, and the default rules the casemate ironclads with fewer guns but better end-on fire than the true broadside ironclads.

Meanwhile, neither of your classes are terribly historical. Several casemate ironclads had two forward/aft guns, and most had the end guns on pivots to fire on the end and on one or both broadsides. Meanwhile, all or almost all ironclads of the era had a wooden hull, and wooden backing of the hull armor--the Monitor only had unbacked metal on the turret itself.
Allr andask.
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#15
(2018-08-06, 06:04 PM)DraWay Wrote: What effect will have a spinblock rudder made of paddles? Never tried this... Do they somehow work in this case?
Hydrofoils don't recognize spinblock angling, this one I tried. However they may be way to go if their own "angle" can be limited in speed, so no instaturns.
Didn't test spinblocked wings.

For propulsion, in normal FtD reality you need tiny engine to feed all yer propellers. Thus usual hardcaps on speed or props. Harnas did a new step with cylinder only engines, but these  are still too small to be a concern for movement only application, so he also limited props.
And what I'm thinking here is next step, to somehow make cost and size of sufficient powerplant the main speed limiter, maybe even allow hacked 500% drive propeller to utilize it without spam.

Ask for power per paddle is indeed possible solution, though need some testing.
Build a boat, slap there two huge props with enough powah, add weight until it goes desired speed. Then swap propellers for paddles with 100% engine assists and add (actually working) paddleblocks until it reaches same speed. Then divide that 150(?) power by number of paddles. Or something like that.

Why exactly 1 meter shells?
Also, noodle barrels?

For spar mine, how about... NUKE?
These used stupid charge of kaboomium compared to torpedoes of the time.
NUKE, and it needs to be on a retracting stick. So if it gets hit early, all kaboomium will be applied to carrier itself.
Even if not nuke, ask for the stick.

For gun numbers and calibers... I think that mixing gunnery of sailing broadsides and the ironclads into single table isn't good idea... As isn't good mixing of wooden broadsides with ironclads in the first place. It said, ironclad made old ships obsolete, probably even more so than with the Dreadnought.
Maybe, let's focus on actual ironclads? Metal coat, heavy guns (so like 180-305mm mainly, no or minimum of pewers and no dozens of barrels), mechanical propulsion (props or paddles) as mandatory and sails as option.

And here's proposition on two main classes: casemate and turreted.

Casemate cannot have anything but AI and gun components on subobjects (excluding spar mines), and cannot have more than 2 centerline guns - one fore, one aft., and none of them can have 360deg arc, representing conventional ironclad ships of time.

Turreted can have turrets at centerline and armoured, but cannot use wood in construction (but maybe up to 1,5 meters metal?), so will be smaller and easier to sink, representing early monitor class.

Well, I know that if you make a semi-small paddle (just a few paddles long) and set that to spin either left or right, you get a similar effect to a rudder. XD Dunno about actually on a spin block for steering. I have made a derpy, most certainly oversized, ironclad for testing stuff.

If you could put the 500% propellers up, I can take a looksie at them. Might force bigger powerplants. If we also force the large steam engines, those take up quite a lot of space, so that can probably work too...

That paddle thing could work. Although, lots of maths. Tongue

One meter shells because a 12in wide, 5 meter long shell never happened? Plus they look more like cannon balls. And it means you can make a smaller caliber shell potentially do more.

NO NOODLES. These ships had short, short barrels. Especially the 1860s ones.

I mean, we could use a nuke? But I need to test.

During the 1860s, and even into the 1870s, broadside ironclads (ironclad frigates) were looooved in Europe. Pretty much sailing ships, just made with a lot more iron. So yeah. If someone wants to make a wooden ship, their loss. Although if it somehow wins the tournament... I'll need to think of something special...

The river ironclads were pretty much all casemates, and those of the Union had three forward guns. Of course those were even more boxy than the Confederate ones, and the Union had more guns, so they didn't need to limit the number of guns and make the guns capable of rotating through three different holes.

But I do like that idea for the turret ships...
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#16
@Blothorn, I already know most of that, I just keep in mind that here is a game, which so far from reality in several things so totally historical setups simply won't work as you expect. And formally a tournament, where everyone possibly will cheese combat efficiency.

The so called "casemate" class actually would be better called "conventional". If you read it carefully, you notice that it isn't limiting to american riverboats, it can include everything but monitors. You can have frigates there, as well as rotating guns. You can't have them in armoured turrets though.

And "monitor" classes no-wood thing mainly meant to balance optimal gun placement by being overall worse as vehicle, and to filter out steel gunbricks on wooden rafts.

Then, Foxes subclasses easily can go under these mains.

...now I wonder if thing like HMS Captain will fit into turreted type.
Makes things.
The fastest thing in the universe is sluggish... Years, decades, centuries from star to star.
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#17
@Captain, slap 5 huge props and imagine that there's only one, and you'll see what it is.
NutterChap can post a subobjects I believe.
I'm still half world from games until 23 aug.

To make clear, cheatyprop was meant to be used in superbulky engine setup, so it always will work with partial power, and you could squeeze as many power as you can afford in them without need to spam another one.
Makes things.
The fastest thing in the universe is sluggish... Years, decades, centuries from star to star.
Reply

#18
(2018-08-06, 06:56 PM)DraWay Wrote: @Blothorn, I already know most of that, I just keep in mind that here is a game, which so far from reality in several things so totally historical setups simply won't work as you expect. And formally a tournament, where everyone possibly will cheese combat efficiency.

The so called "casemate" class actually would be better called "conventional". If you read it carefully, you notice that it isn't limiting to american riverboats, it can include everything but monitors. You can have frigates there, as well as rotating guns. You can't have them in armoured turrets though.

And "monitor" classes no-wood thing mainly meant to balance optimal gun placement by being overall worse as vehicle, and to filter out steel gunbricks on wooden rafts.

Then, Foxes subclasses easily can go under these mains.

...now I wonder if thing like HMS Captain will fit into turreted type.

You said they can't have more than two guns-- oh. On the center line! I thought you meant only one gun facing fore and another facing back.

And Im aware of the broadside limitations. Hence the Broadsider subclass.

I'd say the HMS captain can be it's own type. Has turrets, but the shape forces some of the Broadside rules?
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#19
I can easily provide any% drive propeller prefabs, yeah. For the record, I spileld the beans in an FTD fighting ships thread once, which Tomson picked up. His thread has all the relevant information, basically, to start making those power-props yourself:

https://forum.fromthedepthsgame.com/show...?tid=27365

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(There is) A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
-Ecclesiastes 3:3
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#20
(2018-08-07, 08:51 AM)NutterChap Wrote: I can easily provide any% drive propeller prefabs, yeah. For the record, I spileld the beans in an FTD fighting ships thread once, which Tomson picked up. His thread has all the relevant information, basically, to start making those power-props yourself:

https://forum.fromthedepthsgame.com/show...?tid=27365

Oh sweet! Gonna be putting a hard limit on the speed though. 15 m/s is 29 knots, no ship of this era, sailing or otherwise, is capable of such speeds. Not until WWII times. So 10 m/s (19 knots) is the maximum speed. "Improved Props" are allowed to get your ship to that point. A little over 10m/s is allowed, but once you're at 11 m/s, no. Even 10.8 might be too much. Does that sound fair?
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