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Sea Encounters: Ironclads [Discussion]

#1
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[Videos here]
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#2
GAAAAAAAAH. Stupid character limit!!!!!! Gonna re-write out the rules real quick. If they suck, I'm sorry. I'm annoyed at the character limit.

Spawning distance is 1k, DQ distance is 1.5k.
Spawn sticks are allowed IF you make a Fleet Subclass and do not count to the total cost.
Graphics used (at this time) is the simple setting, colors look different under it from maximum quality, be aware of that.

Overall Design Limits:
[*]1860-1879 style ships with some fantasy elements (like a 36 gun single-turret monitor)
[*]Wood and metal only. However blocks like glass and ERA can be used for windows/internal decoration/such things. However stone, LWMA, and heavy armor are not allowed at all, whatsoever.
[*]Metal can only be a single layer, all slopes backed with another equal or lesser slope, in order to equal about 1 layer.
[*]Metal can be backed by up to TWO layers of wood.
[*]Pure wood can be three layers thick.
[*]Must use a JBGMK1 to steer (spin block, 3m pole, three small propellers. -+60 degrees. [the original 85 is absurd].
[*]No ammo processors.

Propulsion Limits:
[*]Fuel engines are allowed with any cylinder additions BANNED. No carburators, injectors, superchargers, etc. Just cylinders and exhaust.
[*]Steam engines are allowed.
[*]All waterborne propulsion is allowed! Sail, underwater propellers, and paddles!
[*]Paddles are limited to 3 blocks away from the central pole.
[*]Maximum of 2 large propellers, however those can be changed to 5 small props each. Must be BALANCED SYMMETRICALLY.

AI Limits:

[*]Max of 4 AI total.
[*]2 can carry naval AI cards (captain and another officer)
[*]Detection will be set to 0.25, only detection allowed are cameras. Two 360 degree cameras are allowed on spinblocks per battery (A single gundeck on a broadsider, a turret, or a side with guns for casemates), the rest must either be looking through windows/holes in superstructure, or outside the hull. The spinblock-cams are to represent crewmembers peering through gunports and such.

Building Limits:
[*]Empty space must be either a hall or a room.
[*]Halls are 1 wide, 2 tall gaps leading into rooms, must have doors leading into any room along its way.
[*]Rooms are at minimum 3x3x2 spaces that have doors leading into any hall if the blocks between the room and hall are only 1 thick. Turret wells included!
[*]Ammo storage can be any even number from 2 and up as long as they are connected by a hall to another hall that has access to the turrets so as to allow for powder and shot to reach the guns. One room is powder, one room is shot and shell.

Weapons Limits:

[*]APS only!!!
[*]Max Caliber is 305mm (unless effected by subclass).
[*]Minimum Caliber is 95mm.
[*]Mixing and matching is allowed (see the gun cal to gun number list for how to do it)
[*]Only allowed shell types are solid shot, impact-fuse HE, or pen-depth HE. Only allowed caps are APCap and HECap.
[*]A max shell length of 1m for all guns, unless it requires the use of a half-customizer.
[*]A single autoloader with no clips is allowed at 1m. If direct fed, you may have just over 2m by way of making that half-customizer a full customizer. No mixing autoloader and direct feed.
[*]NO coolers allowed!
[*]Up to 3 torpedoes are allowed with three gantries set to prop-fins-fuel-ballast-explosive-explosive
[*]Mixing and matching calibers is allowed based on the chart and rules laid below.
Gun Caliber to Gun Number:  
 
305mm=4  
295mm=5  
285mm=6  
275mm=7  
265mm=8  
255mm=9  
245mm=10  
235mm=11  
225mm=12  
215mm=13  
205mm=14  
195mm=16  
185mm=18  
175mm=20  
165mm=22  
155mm=24  
145mm=26  
135mm=28  
125mm=30  
115mm=32  
105mm=34  
95mm=36 
So just multiply the caliber to the gun number, then subtract however many full size guns you're gonna have from that, then divide (or subtract) by whatever smaller caliber you'll be using with it and round down. (Eg: I want to use a single max size gun, and then make the rest be the minimum size. 305mm*4=1220. 1220-305=915. 915/95=9.63157... Round down to 9x 95mm guns. One 305mm, and nine 95mm.)

[*]Torpedoes are allowed as fixed launchers, fins-prop-fuel-explosive. No guidance whatsoever.
[*]Up to 5 simple rams allowed.

Subclasses:
100 Ton Cannon: The only allowed ranged weapon is a single 17in (450mm) cannon in whatever arrangement you like. You may have up to 3m long shells. However the ROF must be set to 30 seconds (ROF is subject to change based on testing). And remove 10k material.

Monitor: By having all guns constantly rotating turrets (guns on a spin block set to rotate), you are allowed an additional 50% (rounded up) of whatever normal caliber guns you wish. But you remove 5k material. (This is the only way to give the 100 Ton cannon extra guns. Tongue 100 T-G is allowed to be on a normal turret, can't aim otherwise.)

Broadsider: [Needs work] All guns must face perpendicular to the centerline and cannot face more than 45 degrees to the bow or stern. No turret blocks allowed whatsoever!!!) You get to double your firepower! That's four 305mm cannons on each side, or 36 95mm cannons on each side! However, mix-and-matching is not allowed. ONE CALIBER ONLY. 

Fleet: You can split the 35k into a fleet of at most 4 boats, with one AI each. However, there is no mix-and-matching allowed. You pick a single caliber and that's the max number of guns and max size you get between however many boats you make. Whether that's 4 one-gun 305mm monitors, or 4 nine-gun 95mm casemate ships.

See other SE tournaments for how the voting and junk will happen. The character limit hates me for some reason.][/b]
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#3
Oh, so it's early-eeearly ironclads. Then I still have a chance to make another ironclads thing later
Sooo... let's talk.
Propulsion, if you want realistic thing, let it be one or two huge props, sails or slow paddlewheels. Or all of them.

Have theoretical idea on speed limits:
Make absurdly weak space inefficient engine (decorate it as steam boiler) and say to use that. So it's trade of recources, space and mass for engine power to run propulsion, or speedy hull, or both.
It gets tricky with paddles, as they technically can be free to run...
Makes things.
The fastest thing in the universe is sluggish... Years, decades, centuries from star to star.
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#4
Yeah. XD Those are when they were called ironclads. I mean, I could pump it to the 1870s too, because the 1880s was when the term 'battleships' came into use... I think. Plus it'll be hard to make one of the later ironclads with like, 35k and the armor is also better past then. They also stopped using as much wood backing if wood backing was a thing in the ships, so my 1 layer of metal, 2 max layers of wood won't work.

Paddles MUST have max engine transmission-whatever-that-ten-slider-is-called?

Making them use steam engines could also work, right? Only manual stuff, so no batteries or electric turbine... Uh. Should resources be a thing, or just infinite amounts of them? No healing, just for the steam engines? Or a fuel engine with just cylinders like SE:BB...
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#5
Well I'm stupid slav and call ironclads everything before dreadnought. We here didn't have that transition to "battleships" and iirc officially even our dreadnoughts were called with term that translates into "ironclad".

>Paddles MUST have max whatever
...and don't have engine and still run on magic.
Though I'm unsure, if powerless paddles can be reliable enough (they very weak), but they definitely easier to control and predict than sails.

Generally what harnas did not good enough is cheese filter. I think it's important to make sure, that anything you don't want to see used is clearly prohibited.

Steam engines? They have so stupid power output.
Maybe if enforce 3-piston engines and minimal burn rate for boilers? But such thing will start really slowly.

I think you should test something with wood backed metal armour and these minimalistic guns to see if it even works, and how entertaining it is to build and to watch.
Makes things.
The fastest thing in the universe is sluggish... Years, decades, centuries from star to star.
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#6
(2018-08-05, 06:37 PM)DraWay Wrote: Well I'm stupid slav and call ironclads everything before dreadnought. We here didn't have that transition to "battleships" and iirc officially even our dreadnoughts were called with term that translates into "ironclad".

>Paddles MUST have max whatever
...and don't have engine and still run on magic.
Though I'm unsure, if powerless paddles can be reliable enough (they very weak), but they definitely easier to control and predict than sails.

Generally what harnas did not good enough is cheese filter. I think it's important to make sure, that anything you don't want to see used is clearly prohibited.

Steam engines? They have so stupid power output.
Maybe if enforce 3-piston engines and minimal burn rate for boilers? But such thing will start really slowly.

I think you should test something with wood backed metal armour and these minimalistic guns to see if it even works, and how entertaining it is to build and to watch.


They are weak if they're small... At the very least, if the armor around the paddles is penned, paddle goes poof real quick. Oh, definitely gonna need to add a JBG for the rudder... Maybe just a single small propeller to represent how absolutely crap the ships are at turning? Or would that be too boring to watch?

Yeah, I'd love to keep cheese to a minimum.

They do have a stupid power output, but they also take up a ton of space. And with 35-40k resources, that's not gonna be a very big ship, even with a single layer of metal...

I do plan on testing that for sure. I think I'll just not allow coolers, and won't have any definitive 'main or secondary guns' because early ironclads don't really have such things. Should I try that thing where you mentioned increasing the amount of guns based on how small the calibers were? so 4 max size (305mm for ease of size changing)...hmm. maybe an extra gun for every 10mm it goes down? *performs quick maths* Eh. That won't really work. :/

Actually, more quick maths for a hopefully balanced amount. From 305-205mm, every decrease in 10mm=1 gun, from 195-95, every decrease in 10mm=2 guns. So at 205 you can theoretically put in 14 205mm guns, and at 95mm you can theoretically put in 36 guns.

This is based on a list from wikipedia of naval artillery. (albeit, from Britain, but we all know what the British are known for, so I say it counts. Plus most other guns were based off their sizes anyway). Smallest 1860s gun is 95mm, so that'll be the minimum size. Largest 1860s gun is 12inches (304.8mm) but I'm gonna go with 305 because that's what the ammo controllers put it at. And of the 305mm guns, the ships with the most of them, had at most: 4. So I say it stands to reason that 4 is the max you can have of the big guns. Some more, extremely quick, research makes me feel this fits.

Definitely need to figure out what sort of broadside-wooden-ship subclass would have... Looking at the USS Merrimack (before the civil war) that had 14x 8in (~203mm), 2x 10in (~254mm), and 24x 9in (~229mm). 

If I make it a max number of components, then EVERYONE is gonna shove as many biggest allowed guns on their ships. And I'd rather avoid that because it gets boring.

Does 1km sound like a good max firing range (as in go past, gain DQ time)?

Quick Edit: Does 3 wooden sailing ships armed with the HE 'shell shot' rounds sound good for a strike force? Should I try and make replicas of the USS Congress, USS Cumberland, and USS Minnesota? For lulzies?
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#7
Some ammo size testing put the 305mm cannons needing a normal ammo customizer, then a half customizer (3 total) to fit within 1m. I will allow 2 normal customizers if they're PURELY direct fed. For the other sizes... I guess similarly for one meter, and if that means a half customizer, then a full one if direct fed.

Further testing says keep the number of 1x1 blocks you use to a minimum. Tongue This GP-Penfuse-HE-AP Cap shell is capable of going through metal-wood-wood in 1x1 blocks. Gonna try beams in both directions next. (perpendicular to barrel and parallel to barrel)

Alright, out of boredom/want to do something different, I'm making the USS Congress. Would setting it to 0.0 detection and only allowing cameras be too harsh? Or does that sound fair due to the time period?
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#8
Hmm. Should I allow ship designs from the 1870s too? Or keep it at 1860s?

I think I will allow 1870s designs. Doesn't change the caliber sizes.

Although I will allow a 17in (450mm) gun. a SINGLE 17in (450mm) gun, as in that is the only gun and ranged weapon on the ship.

And very basic, slow torpedoes. Fins, prop, fuel, explosive head. That's it. They have to be fixed launchers as well.

If you want to simulate a spar torpedo, you're allowed a missile launcher that's one gantry, so two explosive heads, set to fire straight ahead with a max set range of 10m.

I'll also allow up to 5 rams.
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#9
I think I'm going to try make a wooden sailing monitor with basically no draught and a nasty ram. Steam and sail power combined to get up to around 15m/s hopefully. Should be a fun entry, just sprinting in to ram the opponent and hopefully not die to a sneeze before it gets there Tongue
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#10
Why do 'turrets' have to rotate in 1 direction continuously? Only based off of the Monitor's situation during the battle of Hampton Roads, where, due to battle damage, the mechanism could only move in 1 direction anymore and didnt stop just so the mechanism would not get any further problems? Erikson designed that turret t be able to move and stop, in both directions. No need for this strange rule.
Also, up to 1870 ships had up to 2 of those turrets, which were perfectly capable of moving in either direction and then stopping.

Spar torpedo is not something that gets launched: it is basically a bomb on a stick: I guess an ammo box with an APS shooting it would be a better simulation of that.

Also, force triple expansions team engines is OK in my opinion, even if at low burn rate. Large boiler in use per se. ACB to set burn rate higher for the first 10 seconds of the match, just to get things going.
maybe ask for 10 engine power per paddle block?

CRAM CRASH COURSE

(There is) A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
-Ecclesiastes 3:3
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