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A few questions (Design and Campaign related)

Hoo boy is this game fun. I've spent a *lot* of time in designer, almost to the point of being afraid to go into campaign. But I made a 7 or 8k missile/cram corvette and went off in search of some DWG to kill...only to come across a Corsair while in "easy" design mode on the campaign scrappy little corvette somehow survived the fight (speed / size tanking if I had to guess)

Now I've got a 2nd resource node, am building up some RPs and looking to make a second ship.

While I do that I've got a few questions...

1) how big (rp wise) was your 2nd ship? spamming a second corvette doesn't seem like a winning strategy to me, but most of my "better" designs are 20-30k minimum.
2) what kind of armaments should I be loading out on a ship in that 15-30k range? I can spam missiles pretty well, can cram CRAM cannons into a design but they don't seem all that effective vs say, the Corsair, which is my current test-adversary to beat. This brings me to
3) what caliber/barrel/ammo APS are y'all taking into early game vs the dwg. I think I might have found a good one at ~60 rounds per minute 200mm x 1-2 barrel/gun HEAT/HESH (haven't settled on which really handles most DWG targets better) I can fit 2 of these and a healthy mix of missiles on a 30k ship, but my speed starts capping around 15 without enough engine for shields or buoyancy for armor.

4. on the subject of buoyancy. I get CoM/CoB, seems like my more stable designs have CoB above CoM for better keeling/recoil resilience. But I tend to make protected turrets (actual turret block is like 6-10 blocks below the firing piece and most of the guts are below decks) but designs with this tend to either sit deep (costing speed for submerged hull) or the superstructure above water is high, CoM goes way above CoB and the ship lacks the roll stability to even turn. Aside from engines/ammo/fuel and lead, what else is living down by the keel to give you stability?

5. Relating to speed and buoyancy. I've watched a few videos and it seems like as of 2.16, wide flatbottom hulls with what I'll call a "wedge" nose (nose is same width as bottom but slopes up, no fairing into what I'd call a proper bow) seem to be the fastest. I ran a test or two with very similar block count/engine power/propeller count between V hull and the above, and it seemed V hulls aren't so good. My only problem is this seems to make keeling problematic yet again. Is everyone else having similar results?

6. Last question, armor. Are tumble-home (sloped) armor exteriors actually more protective or for the same block count am I better off just making thick verticals? If I do slope there's always at least one layer of regular blocks behind it. I think I'm seeing an improvement, but given the seemingly random nature of damage I'm not really sure. Anyone else have a good study out there?

One last bit on tumble-home designs, do these give an advantage in lowering in game radar cross section?

Much of that I'm unfamiliar with, but I can help with the cannons and other weapons.

Against DWG, the weapons I like are HE, CRAM or APS (hollow point head on APS if you have at least 3 warheads), low-caliber high-ROF solid/sabot APS (really good for coring AI and ammo), torpedoes (generally strong against ships), and low-gauge frag APS spam. Simple lasers can provide excellent AA.

My personal starting fleets look something like this:

11k cost 100m/s 9-missile fighter (RTG powered),
2k cost 8-mine helicopter (strange design, actually no engine and proppeled by a turreted dediblade),
small hovercraft: 30k cost 4-CRAM and 6 simple lasers, 60m/s speed, and
10k hovercraft, 1 AP APS, 2 torpedoes
I use a variety of these basic designs. You may also notice that all are aircraft, which makes the DWG easier. Subs are also incredibly effective.

As far as turret stucture or whatever, keeping them in-hull and under the waterline is almost always best, you are doing good there. Most new players make everything on-deck. Speed isn't too much of a problem, I don't think, you just need a few more large props or more 4m slopes.
(2017-04-20, 06:54 PM)Hikari Wrote: I made something that has an impact of a type 1a supernova. The projectile already breaks laws of physics by going way past the speed of light.

2000mm HE Dakka Enthusiast

I have a 12k missile skimmer and a 20k laser/torpedo helicopter, can rapidly clear entire DWG godly with them. Neither have any armour to speak of - the heli has a frontal shield.

Speed-wise, there are no hydrodynamics, just drag. 4m slopes of all descriptions are the least draggy when pointing forwards, but eventually your ship will have more drag from being long than thin so don't make pencil craft, there's no point. Inverted bows are just as fast as right-way-up ones ( see most of the old ships in the thread in my sig for examples ) and U shape hulls are generally a better idea than V-shape ( for the same reason real ships are U shape in the middle ).

Most people use active stability, generally PID-controlled roll props. Make superstructure out of alloy when you can, it's much lighter.
Poke my boat! mostly pre-2.0 learning & catalogue thread - Update: Heavy & light tanks 07/04/18 for 2.1. 6 ships made 2.0 aware. No more post-processing! finally! but now I can't read the forum.

I'm noob too, but know something about DWG.

On boats.
I didn't finish campaign because it's not interesting enough in current state, but beaten DWG twice.
My first boat was crappy 20k monitor, it got multiple refits in field and became mediocre 30k monitor, clone of which is my second boat. It's somewhere in blueprints section for anyone to poke.
In other run, the first and main thing in DWG war was refitted trophy Falkenheim, that we shot down with simplest frag machine gun and captured. Then I stole a turret from Pilferer and slapped it into old monitor, which became second craft.

On guns.
Point is, you don't need much to deal with pirates. You can play with weapons and try different ways for fun.
All of pirates like rain of frags, and most of them like big kabooms. HESH won't be as effective because of mostly wooden hulls, as its damage depends on strength of hitted material. But still, HESH spam kills everything. Spam in general kills everything eventually.
For small cheap craft it's better to use small high gauge clipless APS than small cram, and small cram cannons are incredibly bad by design.

On buoyancy.
Secret of naturally stable ship is to have more in width than in height, keep everything heavy as low as possible, have buoyancy sources (pumps or floaty blocks) spread far enough to the sides and keep recoil in sane bounds.
Secret of natural stability at speed is keep propellers and rudders in horizontal plane of the CoM and don't go too fast.
Secret of high passive buoyancy is none, currently making ship crammed with heavy stuff fly in space is easier than make it float in water. You either have big empty (or filled with wood/alloy) spaces in hull instead of something useful, or slap some propellers and technically fly.
Also there's hydrofoils, they can be used to assist with stability or even lift whole thing out of water and let it skim on waves at ludicrous speeds.

Currently all blocks, including sloped armour ones, threated as cuboids, so "sloped armour" made of slopes isn't working. Also sloped blocks have less health than full ones.
However, "slope" of whole craft taking hits at an angle do work.
So it's better to have solid verticals and be angled relative to incoming fire.
Also there is armour stacking, which means a 2-block wall generally tougher than two 1-block walls.
And having armoured deck behind the wall is equal to having shipwide thick wall at that level
Makes things.
The fastest thing in the universe is sluggish... Years, decades, centuries from star to star.

got about 1500 hours and a few campaigns under me.

For campaign: I generally launch a small task-force of cheap starter craft and some logistical infrastructure during the first stage of the DWG campaign. After I pick up the second resource zone I start building frigates and destroyers between 20k/30k up to 100k/150k. These prove more than able to destroy anything the DWG fields, and in fleets can be later used against most of the other factions. After I have a solid backbone of these types of ships I start constructing cruisers and larger ships that spearhead the fight against later factions.

TL;DR: anywhere from 20k-50k is a good price point for a second wave of ships

Guns: my go-to vs all factions is still Inertial Frag. against heavily armored ships various explosive shells, combination shells, and kinetic shells can all work. A good shell can save a bad gun and a good gun can make bad shells work. you really want to just try and get the best performance vs the targets you think you will fight though testing.

Stealth: it's a myth, don't worry about radar/sonar/IR cross section. The game was never designed for stealth and the complexity of the system betrays it's relatively limited impact on the game. The only feasible stealth craft are small wood flyers (can trick IR and radar weapons) and subs

-from what you're describing I have a feeling you've built your ships too thin relative to their length and height.
-Most large ships do use some form of active stabilization (props or hydrofoils) though it's usually to compensate for odd hull shapes, very high speeds, or high-recoil guns. Some of the larger, denser ones use props to carry their weight.
-The 'trick' to passive buoyancy is Alloy and smart design of air chambers. My ships are built to tank and I get a lot of mileage out of composite alloy armors and replacing parts of the super-structure of the ship with alloy. On any ship this will carry a nice amount of weight, but if built right you can make ships float even with every compartment breached.
-Glaydon's emerald/topaz battleships are very good examples of extremely durable ships that use entirely natural bouyancy.
-I've found "V" hulls more stable when damaged and somewhat more durable (they end up being wider and give active stabilization more moment arm). U hulls offer more space efficiency and tend to be more stable, though i'm not sure if this is due to the same or because such ships usually carry weight low and run quite deep.

Tumble-home offers no stealth advantage (see above) I use them because I like the look and it's a by-product of my "V" hulls. They're also an aesthetically pleasing way to take a ship that's too thick at the water line and give it a thinner deck. A useful secondary effect of that is to place a lot of armor at the water line and to save weight if you're going for a thickly armored deck (which you always should given airships)
-Do not bring forth an argument as fact that can be disproven with a 10 minute Google search.

Stealth works as far as avoiding missiles go, to a degree - small IR & radar sigs mean you can avoid being locked by most IR/radar homing missiles & the few that do lock on ( missiles are buggy, they'll lock on regardless sometimes ) can be decoyed off easily. Nothing can hide from cameras though - even subs show up on above-water IR cameras. If you propel a skimmer with a CJE you can embed the engine so far it hardly contributes any signature, even heat. Cross-section is a bit big, I guess. Again though, can't hide from every sensor.
Poke my boat! mostly pre-2.0 learning & catalogue thread - Update: Heavy & light tanks 07/04/18 for 2.1. 6 ships made 2.0 aware. No more post-processing! finally! but now I can't read the forum.

IR missiles can still lock on, even without any heat, which I find annoying.
(2017-04-20, 06:54 PM)Hikari Wrote: I made something that has an impact of a type 1a supernova. The projectile already breaks laws of physics by going way past the speed of light.

2000mm HE Dakka Enthusiast

(2018-07-15, 12:11 AM)MizarLuke Wrote: IR missiles can still lock on, even without any heat, which I find annoying.

Radar seekers can lock on at multiples of the radar signature distance. But then radar seekers can be distracted by flares, so as I said there are gremlins in missile seekers. At least if your craft signature is small then it's easy to decoy incoming missiles. The advantage of a jetboat is you can outrun the things too...

Ships I've used in the past vs DWG have generally used 1m long 54/62/71mm frag rounds at maybe 3 rps, and the last one also used 3m 300mm HE/HP which I don't often use elsewhere on Neter ( works well vs tanks, for sure ). Frag rounds will still shred wood and single layered metal even through a shield layer, just have to set the rounds up a little differently.
Poke my boat! mostly pre-2.0 learning & catalogue thread - Update: Heavy & light tanks 07/04/18 for 2.1. 6 ships made 2.0 aware. No more post-processing! finally! but now I can't read the forum.

As others have said, inertial frag is the best go-to round for APS, because it can penetrate a layer of shielding and still do significant damage. Also try shield-targeting IR-camera missiles with a bit of EMP, an explosive tip, and a lot of low-angle frag. These are great for general use, able to take down aircraft and also chip away the shielding on big ships, allowing your big damage dealers (APS, CRAM, laser) to go to work unimpeded, and against ships with poor EMP shielding they can often strip its detection and LAMS off along the way. Against a properly shielded ship you'll see them spread out to hit just about every inch of surface area if the volley is large enough.
Also good is HE torpedo spam (which, if you use a one turn and torpedo sonar, can be mounted vertically facing down.out of the hull; enabling you to pack a bunch into a relatively small ship while keeping them well protected) which simply blow DWG craft out of the water. Lasers are also very strong against the DWG because they lack the armour to stand up to a focused beam. Try to optimise the laser so that each pulse cam destroy at least a wooden beam, or a metal beam if you're building a bigger laser system. Last thing to mention is high gauge APS or CRAM firing explosive shells with a timed fuze, and a laser targeting thingy in the gun so that you can set the timer to go off at the expected time of impact. Good for dual-purpose use because with the blast radius of high gauge shells you have a reasonable hit probability against small fast flyers and you will do significant damage to the lightly armoured DWG craft you do hit directly. Could even add a anti-missile cannon controller on as well and have the flak cannons help you to take down missile swarms.

I would say go for one or two of these options as primary weapon systems on a 15-30k ship, with another one or two as secondary armament. E.G. a ship with torpedoes and a big frag turret, which has a small laser system for LAMS/ light AA.

By the way, the latter thing is a great way to achieve greater firepower for a marginal cost increase in LAMS-equipped ships. Feed the LAMS into a bunch of small laser turrets or something along those lines, which are all linked to one AI which is responsible for the laser turrets and nothing else. Then just have an ACB which turns the mainframe off if a missile is in range of the LAMS, and anpther which turns it back on again. Provided you have no missiles coming at you, the turrets will provide some very decent AA against small craft.

This game is very lucky to have you highly engaged expert players! Some good info in here!
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