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Poll: What do you think about the suggestion?
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Good idea
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7 87.50%
Bad idea
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1 12.50%
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Make HEAT dump all its frags on the first airgap

#1
Tinkered with the devtest version HEAT a bit:
- with air getting buffed to noticeable levels spamming jets doesn't look like a practical strategy
- you can't expect HEAT to get through the first gap with reasonable power remaining, it's best to try to dump frags after the first armor layer
- structure of opponents vary wildly, a jet with 30 metric spawns 66% of its frags on 5m metal, only ~21% on 1m HA

As a result I think it is way too unreliable to use over other options.
IMO making HEAT dump all frags after the first armor layer, regardless of metric would solve the problem.

Metric still matters:
- if you overshoot armor it's wasted power that could've gone into frags
- if the opponent doesn't have gaps jet can still mess up vulnerable components

Optimal case would be a bit different from HESH: HESH would better against thin armor,
HEAT numbers could be adjusted so it's weaker against 1-4m but doesn't care too much about going up even to 10+.
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#2
That makes sense, but if we want to be a bit realistic, since irl the heat jet will make molten fragments every time it passes through metal till the beam doesnt have enough energy to pen, we can make it so 80% or 90% of the copper fragments wil spawn
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#3
Bad idea. This would make it pretty much pointless to make extra-large-caliber HEAT and would circumvent most of the usefulness of the secondary shaped charge for punching through ERA. Each layer of air-gap eats 20 metric but HEAT can have metric levels in the hundreds. Implementing this would make even the very basic spaced armor on some of my corvettes enough to hold off Thyr's HEAT jets at least enough to keep their guns operational until the clips emptied, which while nice for me would not make any sense. (Their ammo would be a lost cause.)
As is HEAT with a high enough metric can reliably damage any component that doesn't have internal armor, such as an unarmored turret or an AI core, even if there's spaced armor on the outside as long as the spaced armor is inadequate to stop the jet from getting at the turret. Even a small amount of frags are enough to do things like popping CRAM explosive boxes.

Then again I also think HEAT should perhaps only consider structural blocks when deciding where to spawn frags as the jet comes out as well.
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#4
No, each layer of air eats 60 metric now.
It means that air gaps are actually useful, you just can't expect to get through them and have enough metric left to actually do something.

Thinking that HEAT frags will kill anything important is just silly, nobody halfway competent leaves naked components lying around where HEAT can spawn.
Turrets are the only things that could possibly be in danger(armoring them usually takes too much space),
but when the outer armor+air takes away ~140 metric and the internal metal only ~4(ok, 8 with 2 layers) you'll get sweet fuckall for frags.

The change would need an overall reduction in metrics, to maybe ~50-ish at 500mm.
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#5
I was not aware that air's effective AC had been bumped even higher than 400. Though, that makes this even less relevant as 60 metric is still enough to punch through 6 layers of heavy armor or 12 layers of solid metal. As far as getting through armor alone, there'd be no purpose to having more than 60 pen metric unless you specifically wanted to punch past air gaps.

I also see now, this would mean that there would be no fragments 'wasted' on air. I always figured that HEAT frags being proportional to armor thickness was a balancing factor on the armor end - thicker armor carries the downside of whatever's beyond it being more vulnerable to HEAT frags, and HEAT can (as in real life) be fine-tuned to be particularly effective against one thickness of armor - but I could support changing the frags-per-armor-layer multiplier from something garbled, quoted below (Mlayer / Mtotal) to (MLayer / (Mtotal - M[gap[/sub])) where Mtotal is total metric, Mlayer is the metric blown on all armor gaps by the jet. That way you'd have your lack of wasted frags and I would have my frags spawning after the second armor layer.
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#6
(2017-07-15, 02:53 AM)BioPhoenix Wrote: (M[sub]total[/sub] / M[sub]layer[/sub]) to ((M[sub]layer[/sub] - M[sub]gap[/sub]) / M[sub]this[/sub]) where M[sub]total[/sub] is total metric, M[sub]layer[/sub] is the metric blown on all armor gaps by the jet.

That'd mean some magical breakpoints, for example a 124 metric jet with 20 frags hits your air/metal layer and spawns 2 fragments,
you add another air layer and it's suddenly 20.

The point of my suggestion is to make HEAT more consistent, for example having a 180 metric/50 frag one should always do something noticeable.
If you shoot it at a 3m metal / 3m air ship it'll spawn 4 frags and that's it.

Now that I think of it it could also be done by taking the square root/normalized version of the armor layers combined,
so there isn't such a wild variance between 1 and 4m metal.
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#7
Well I managed to put my foot in my mouth with the formula; it was garbled, and it was also completely upside down. I apologize and have corrected the post above.
With the corrected formula a HEAT jet with 124 metric hitting the side of a ship with 1m metal, 1m airgap, 1m metal would use 3.16 on the first metal, 60 on the first airgap, 3.16 on the second metal and then the remaining 57.68 uselessly on air. This would leave Mgap = 117.68 and (Mtotal-Mgap) = 6.32. So each layer of metal would spawn (3.16/6.32) * 20 = 10 frags.
Likewise against a 3m metal / 3m air ship, a 180 metric/50 frag would burn 9.49 metric on the 3m metal, then the full remaining 170.51 metric on the air gap, and spawn all 50 of its frags after the metal. Mtotal-Mgap = 180-170.51 = 9.49, Mlayer/(Mtotal-Mgap) = 9.49/9.49 = 1.
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#8
(2017-07-15, 05:58 PM)BioPhoenix Wrote: With the corrected formula a HEAT jet with 124 metric hitting the side of a ship with 1m metal, 1m airgap, 1m metal would use 3.16 on the first metal, 60 on the first airgap, 3.16 on the second metal and then the remaining 57.68 uselessly on air. This would leave Mgap = 117.68 and (Mtotal-Mgap) = 6.32. So each layer of metal would spawn (3.16/6.32) * 20 = 10 frags.
Likewise against a 3m metal / 3m air ship, a 180 metric/50 frag would burn 9.49 metric on the 3m metal, then the full remaining 170.51 metric on the air gap, and spawn all 50 of its frags after the metal. Mtotal-Mgap = 180-170.51 = 9.49, Mlayer/(Mtotal-Mgap) = 9.49/9.49 = 1.

That way the number of fragments spawned after each layer "magically" depends on what comes after the layer.
It's really clunky and unintuitive IMO.
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