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Laser building checklist

#31
(2016-11-22, 01:57 PM)draba Wrote: APS projectiles are a completely different matter, they have less total HP than a big swarm of missiles and you've a much smaller window to get them.
At very small LAMS sizes it could go either way but yeah, continuous is overall better.
Can't really defend against APS spam with LAMS so I focused on missiles, if you don't want to get killed by the Thyr just don't get hit Smile

My LAMS setup can destroy about 6-7 of its 9 shells, and I have 2 layers of low power reflect shields that have about 30% chance each to detonate the shells that go through the LAMS. And the shells that go through the shields also have to connect...

I have to admit that my LAMS mod is helping a lot, because they do not fire on shells/missiles that are going away from my ship, and they target shells before missiles, even if the missiles are closer.
And I have yet to add one refinement to this mod to be able to stop firing on missiles in order to target a shell that just entered the range (for now the target change can only occur if the target is destroyed).

Without the mod there are about 2 more shells that can go through the LAMS.
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#32
(2016-11-22, 02:33 PM)Gladyon Wrote: My LAMS setup can destroy about 6-7 of its 9 shells, and I have 2 layers of low power reflect shields that have about 30% chance each to detonate the shells that go through the LAMS. And the shells that go through the shields also have to connect...

I have to admit that my LAMS mod is helping a lot, because they do not fire on shells/missiles that are going away from my ship, and they target shells before missiles, even if the missiles are closer.
And I have yet to add one refinement to this mod to be able to stop firing on missiles in order to target a shell that just entered the range (for now the target change can only occur if the target is destroyed).

Without the mod there are about 2 more shells that can go through the LAMS.

Scratch that part then, saw screenshots of the new Thyr(and it looks great) but didn't check its weapons.
The gist is still true though: by APS spam I mean midcaliber turbocannons with an RPM in the high hundreds, don't try to defend against those with LAMS Smile
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#33
(2016-11-22, 03:35 PM)draba Wrote:
(2016-11-22, 02:33 PM)Gladyon Wrote: My LAMS setup can destroy about 6-7 of its 9 shells, and I have 2 layers of low power reflect shields that have about 30% chance each to detonate the shells that go through the LAMS. And the shells that go through the shields also have to connect...

I have to admit that my LAMS mod is helping a lot, because they do not fire on shells/missiles that are going away from my ship, and they target shells before missiles, even if the missiles are closer.
And I have yet to add one refinement to this mod to be able to stop firing on missiles in order to target a shell that just entered the range (for now the target change can only occur if the target is destroyed).

Without the mod there are about 2 more shells that can go through the LAMS.

Scratch that part then, saw screenshots of the new Thyr(and it looks great) but didn't check its weapons.
My battlecruiser could take out 3 Thyr that used CRAM simultaneously, without going under than 98%.
The same battlecruiser has been severly crushed by the new Thyr.
I had to completely overhaul its armor in order to survive the shaped charge, install 1 more layer of shield a little further, increase the power of my LAMS, removed my CRAM guns in order to place similar shaped charge ones and improved the missiles so they can go through most LAMS setup.
Now I can survive the Thyr, taking between 10% and 40% damage, depending on the the stupid AI fights...

So, I'd say that the new Thyr is a lot meaner...

(2016-11-22, 03:35 PM)draba Wrote: The gist is still true though: by APS spam I mean midcaliber turbocannons with an RPM in the high hundreds, don't try to defend against those with LAMS Smile
Wink Yes, that's sure, fortunately shields will reflect most of the fast shells, and LAMS will take care of the slow ones.
Honestly, I like the balance.
My refitted battlecruiser can fight against all WF perforator guns, survive agains advanced shells like the ones of the Thyr, and stand moderate CRAM and missile spam.

But that require careful shielding, good LAMS setup and proper armor layout.
I really like that balance.
Now the PAC must be balanced accordingly, and I don't really know about the laser balance, on that I know you're an expert.


And my refitted battlecruiser can even sink your Blast Tyrant... if I put 3 of them simultaneously... Wink
Note that for a 465k materials ship it's not so bad.
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#34
(2016-11-22, 12:29 PM)draba Wrote:
(2016-11-22, 05:30 AM)ScottWright Wrote: My smallest LUA tiltrotor hovercraft has the same setup as SynthTwo. Now it can handle most CRAMS if they are staggered, and missiles are laughable. So 200 damage, forty times a second. That's from a LAMS system just 3x3x8 if you add the laser box and a freq doubler or two.

After that, my LAMS systems don't get much bigger. All I need are two or three small hovercraft in the area, and all CRAMS and missiles are toast.

I'm seeing what people build for a LAMS system and thinking I'm missing something, but what I have is so incredibly effective, I doubt it. I don't use destabilizers either. All my testing has shown that they drain the storage tank too quickly in the first couple shots, and I lose sustained damage. Tell me if that is wrong.

There are some problems with that setup:
- With a single line using 4 pumps/cavity a 3x3x8 continuous system only has 7x4 = 28 pumps, thats 1400 DPS (35 damage/tick).
You see higher reported damage because your storage holds much more energy than what the pumps can sustain. That bonus is gone after the first few missiles.
- You've got the destabilizer mechanics backwards: you can never lose sustained damage by adding destabs, but having too few will leave some unused pump regen in the cavities(unless you have some extra storage).

You're right in that LAMS is very useful even at small sizes.
Larger ones are still much better, longer missiles have more HP so even 200 damage/tick isn't too much for a continuous LAMS.
Also, you can use multiple nodes to get an almost linear increase in projectiles shot down.

To see the practical difference shoot a midsized salvo(20-30x non-explosive 6 block missiles without stagger) at your flyer, a very good portion will connect.
Larger systems can handle missiles in the hundreds with a great intercept% (thumpers are the exception, swarms of 600+ HP missiles can't be shot down).
If you want a small LAMS use 4Q, it gets twice the damage for the same amount of pumps/power.


It's smaller than 3x3x8 if you are just counting the cavities.

Something isn't right here though. Am I reading it wrong? The laser shows my damage, and I have a setup with a continuous stream of missiles coming in. The laser never drops much below 70 damage per pulse while firing constantly. Is it showing potential damage or real damage? My tests clearly show that removing the storage tank and adding a destabilizer makes the LAMS worse. I'll have to do more testing.

Also, the wiki says two different things about the energy from pumps. One time it says pumps create 50 energy per second, and another it says 25.

"Laser Pump: Attach to sides of Laser Cavities. Produces 50 laser energy per second at the cost of 100 power (80 power-frames per laser energy)."

"The energy going into the laser every second, assuming sufficient power, is simply 25 times the number of Laser Pumps."

EDIT: I've done a bunch of testing since then. Removing the large storage cavity almost halves my dps. Adding destabilizers didn't do anything after the first couple seconds. If I ignore the numbers and just look at the how many missiles make it past the LAMS (They are coming in at 10 a second), I get the same result. Destabilizers aren't doing anything noticeable, and the storage cavity makes a HUGE difference. It's night and day.

I had to build a system twice a large that uses twice the power without the storage cavity just to come close to the smaller system with a storage cavity. I'm thinking it is using unnoticeable down time to recharge a bit, never actually giving the engine a break. You can see in a regular LAMS the power jumps now and then. That is where the extra damage is coming from. But I think you get my point. The storage cavity allows for tiny power usage with an extremely effective LAMS, destabilizers or not.
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#35
(2016-11-23, 07:00 AM)ScottWright Wrote: I mean the whole setup, including the coupler and laser is 3x3x8. There are only 4 cavities and 16 pumps. A laser box, a coupler, a storage tank, 4 cavities with pumps, and a freq doubler.

Something isn't right here though. Am I reading it wrong? The laser shows my damage, and I have a setup with a continuous stream of missiles coming in. The laser never drops much below 70 damage per pulse while firing constantly. Is it showing potential damage or real damage? My tests clearly show that removing the storage tank and adding a destabilizer makes the LAMS worse. I'll have to do more testing.

Also, the wiki says two different things about the energy from pumps. One time it says pumps create 50 energy per second, and another it says 25.

"Laser Pump: Attach to sides of Laser Cavities. Produces 50 laser energy per second at the cost of 100 power (80 power-frames per laser energy)."

"The energy going into the laser every second, assuming sufficient power, is simply 25 times the number of Laser Pumps."

Laser pump performance was doubled a bit back.
The 80 power in the pump tooltip is also wrong, all you need to know is each pump gives 100 damage for 100 power a second if you use 4Q, only 50 damage for 100 power with continuous
(at least that was the case after the update, don't think it changed since then).

16 pumps give 800 damage/second. That's 20 damage/tick for continuous setups, you just didn't notice the drop.
Simply can't get steady 70 damage/tick without feeding 5600 power to the laser.
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#36
(2016-11-23, 10:03 AM)draba Wrote:
(2016-11-23, 07:00 AM)ScottWright Wrote: I mean the whole setup, including the coupler and laser is 3x3x8. There are only 4 cavities and 16 pumps. A laser box, a coupler, a storage tank, 4 cavities with pumps, and a freq doubler.

Something isn't right here though. Am I reading it wrong? The laser shows my damage, and I have a setup with a continuous stream of missiles coming in. The laser never drops much below 70 damage per pulse while firing constantly. Is it showing potential damage or real damage? My tests clearly show that removing the storage tank and adding a destabilizer makes the LAMS worse. I'll have to do more testing.

Also, the wiki says two different things about the energy from pumps. One time it says pumps create 50 energy per second, and another it says 25.

"Laser Pump: Attach to sides of Laser Cavities. Produces 50 laser energy per second at the cost of 100 power (80 power-frames per laser energy)."

"The energy going into the laser every second, assuming sufficient power, is simply 25 times the number of Laser Pumps."

Laser pump performance was doubled a bit back.
The 80 power in the pump tooltip is also wrong, all you need to know is each pump gives 100 damage for 100 power a second if you use 4Q, only 50 damage for 100 power with continuous
(at least that was the case after the update, don't think it changed since then).

16 pumps give 800 damage/second. That's 20 damage/tick for continuous setups, you just didn't notice the drop.
Simply can't get steady 70 damage/tick without feeding 5600 power to the laser.

Ok, I know you're right about the dps. I can't argue that anymore. I think I know what's happening.

It should damage them as calculated dps in theory, but it doesn't in practice. It seems like it doesn't actually fire 40 times a second in a real battle, even if the incoming munitions are non-stop beyond what it can handle. Maybe adding the storage tank allows it to recharge the energy between tiny breaks in the shots. When it does shoot, it's hitting just as hard as a system twice as large. That's the only thing I can think of.
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#37
OK, so I know I'm a lazy-ass, shitty-ass builder, and I haven't checked the whole forum discussion, but I'd recommend never using more than 3-4 destabs. I find that with even as few as 5 destabs the total power boost just tanks so fast that you end up getting very little gain for the cost of the destab.

In case anybody wanted the math I'll leave it here as well, but:

Storage Cavity: Requires 40 normal cavities with 8 laser pumps for max power
Single Input: With four single-input cavities (with 3-way pumps each) you need 13 normal cavities with 8 laser pumps total

Edit: Whups! That's only firing once per second... Would need to multiply the numbers by 4 so 160 cavities for a storage laser and 52 plus 4 single-inputs. I r dum.

Either of these set-ups will give you continuous firepower, though 40 normal cavities will be prohibitively large for anything but a full-blown huge thingy! In Draba I trust, so if I missed these in the forum elsewhere my apologies! But I did something! I like doings of things!!!
“Immature artists imitate. Mature artists steal.”—Lionel Trilling
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#38
Reminder that as the game lags the rate of fire of a continuous laser actually changes so it's always once per frame. This may affect immediate damage.
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#39
(2017-11-25, 06:15 AM)St0rmWyvrn Wrote: I'd recommend never using more than 3-4 destabs. I find that with even as few as 5 destabs the total power boost just tanks so fast that you end up getting very little gain for the cost of the destab.

With the cavity changes 1 destab is all you need, 0 if you have more than 1 combiners.
Only exception is if you want to go below 60 RPM.
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