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Poll: are battleships still usefull?
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yes!
45.90%
28 45.90%
no!
24.59%
15 24.59%
maybe? I don't know.
29.51%
18 29.51%
Total 61 vote(s) 100%
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Battleships

#42
After skimming the thread I figured I'd offer a few opinions as well as relaying some information from a friend who's done more with naval engineering than most people will ever understand, and that's just as a hobby.

1) Battleship's armor is not obsolete, tomahawk missiles only dent battleship plating, heavy sustained bombardment with modern guns is required to significantly damage it, nuclear weapons actually have limited utility against even lightly armored battleships, turns out a weapon that primarily relies on kinetic shockwave and electromagnetic effects to inflict its alpha damage has limited utility against a natural Faraday cage with the best suspension system nature can provide. Look up some tests on this, even low-armored warships aren't significantly damaged by nuclear strikes and the radiation is dulled significantly by the hull, battleship armor would nearly stop it.
tl;dr, immensely thick steel is still the best armor per dollar and per pound against the widest range of impacts, we stopped using this method on tanks because tanks have a propulsion system that is also their support so weight becomes an issue sooner. naval ships have the benefit of buoyancy to handle the weight of their armor and propulsion primarily relies on hull shape, not weight, to achieve top speed. Weight mostly reduces acceleration for a properly designed hull. Modern armor advancements could be applied to make nuclear weapons even more useless against them as well as making them sturdier than the old designs ever were.

2) Lack of armor is the single biggest liability of a modern warship. We have had warships put in drydock for /years/ by people with a speedboat and a cluster of dynamite or a couple of dudes on a coastline with RPG-7s, it's pathetic, they have no redundancy, too many vital systems in the superstructure, and critical structural components can be destroyed by man-portable explosives.

3) Yes it's expensive to armor a ship, yes they will go slightly slower, but we're using nuclear power for the majority of warships already and simply upscaling the propulsion isn't anywhere near impossible. Even 'lightly' armoring our current warships would increase their utility a dozenfold. See point 2.

@FordGT90Concept (Not singling you out, simply one of the most recent replies)
First half of post, yes, this is in fact the literal plan, the USN for example if working on developing new battleships with heavy steel plating under reactive armor plates using self-sealing hull technology developments as a mount for their newest technology because retrofitting older ships is becoming more difficult, and the railgun cannons can offer tremendous ranges and many of the heating and stabilization issues have been solved.
Second half of this post, no. Active Defenses against torpedoes and missiles have increased drastically in recent years, and see point numbers 1 and 2, missiles don't do much to heavily armored warships in the first place. Torpedoes are the only real threat and those /still/ aren't that drastically effective against well-designed armor, their effectiveness against 'modern' warships is entirely due to the almost complete lack of armoring below the waterline or heavy reinforcement to the keel. Remember that while torpedoes have advanced since WW2 so has material science.



tl;dr The only, and I do mean only, reason heavy armor was phased out of naval warfare was with the development of portable missile technology many nation's naval command structure jumped the gun and decided these things would be an end to the "age of armor", they were wrong, they stuck with their wrong decision indefinitely and continue to defend it because that's how politics works, can't ever admit a mistake, even if it wasn't yours. "A giant near-indestructible floating platform with the biggest guns we have mounted on it in 4 sets of 3 or more" isn't a technology you obsolete through nearly any development. You simply upgrade the component parts.


EDIT: And before somebody replies with complaints about either construction costs or fuel costs:
a) Construction costs are 50% arbitrary political spaghetti, 25% material, 25% labor in the first place. (Not literal numbers, smartasses =p, Merely using simplification to demonstrate a point)
b) It costs more money and time to repair that unarmored ship because it got hit exactly once by a low-to-mid caliber gun barrage and it had absolutely no non-structural components or non-hull armoring than it does to simply strip and replace the plates from a battleship after it sustains 30+ minutes of heavy shelling as well as replacing the frequently modular and non-structural hull components, not to mention a well-designed battleship can sail itself back to drydock even with gaping rents in the bow and stern, nearly entirely crushed armor plating on one side, two destroyed turrets, and a broken primary command bridge. "Modern" warships cannot. The design concepts of a battleship and the benefits of it extend well beyond simply "Heavier armor".
c) Nuclear fuel. A relatively tiny amount of nuclear fuel of basically any type runs an aircraft carrier, one of the most power-chugging types of vessels we have on the water, for decades.

EDIT 2: Oh, and, many nations still use heavily armored warships including battleships, some under different names due to treaties(Japan), others simply retrofitting old vessels with very minor changes and them still being insanely effective against modern weapons(Russia)



EDIT 3: In reply to various other bits throughout the thread.
Agility: designs have advanced since WW2, the end.
Submarines: One of the benefits of a loud, obvious, and self-sufficient warship is constantly running highly aggressive active detection systems on top of that isn't really an expense, also see point about torpedoes.

Various "But this ship can" "But that ship can": Bottom line, combat is a rock paper scissors game, always has been, always will be, some things will counter others. The counter to a battleship is an amount of ordinance that takes a dozen or more other large ships to carry or more battleships. Modern missiles aren't that useful against battleships, anti-missile systems have developed drastically and faster than missile systems, and many, many anti-missile systems can fit on a battleship, and many missiles simply cannot crack dense armor on a floating platform*. If we really want to not use something because even one other thing can counter it let me show you the list of military items, from vehicles to ships to planes to infantry weapons, that we could still use.
Code:
1.
2.
3.
Oh wait, there isn't anything. Not having battleships has left a disturbingly massive hole in the naval structure of both the US and several other nations, one that would take literally nothing to exploit in a real combat scenario.


*This actually matters, a lot, 'bunker busters' and 'fortification busting' missiles and artillery are drastically less effective against ships than they are against fortifications and land vehicles.

tl;dr for this section. Making sweeping military composition decisions based on simple statistics and limited evidence is why battleships are gone, and nearly everything that caused this decision to happen has been proven invalid.



OVERALL TL;DR Many assumptions have been made in this thread based on limited evidence and almost entirely manage to assume that one system or another is stuck at the technology level it was at in WW2 or even that said systems are even at the technology level commonly deployed in modern day. For example. Anti-missile system's problems against supersonic missiles are because the AMS that works against supersonic missiles is heavy and energy-hungry. See also the armor point up above. We're not talking "Bring back the WW2 battleships or retrofit the ones we have" We're talking about the concept of a battleship, built today using the same mentality and methods as the ones in WW2, but modern technology.


Sorry if this seems ranty, but the huge list of misconceptions about naval warfare that I see every time discussions like this come up combined with the armchair-general politician mentality of "Cost is the first and final thing we should consider with whether or not a war vehicle is useful" thinking get on my nerves.
(2015-02-13, 01:32 PM)Nick Smart Wrote: I also spaghetti my pants
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Messages In This Thread
Battleships - by lemmington - 2014-04-18, 08:16 AM
RE: Battleships - by SangerZonvolt - 2014-04-18, 10:02 AM
RE: Battleships - by h0yer - 2014-04-18, 03:28 PM
RE: Battleships - by Tchou - 2014-04-18, 04:35 PM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2014-04-18, 08:31 PM
RE: Battleships - by SangerZonvolt - 2014-04-19, 09:38 AM
RE: Battleships - by h0yer - 2014-04-19, 10:31 AM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2014-04-19, 10:42 AM
RE: Battleships - by SangerZonvolt - 2014-04-19, 09:39 PM
RE: Battleships - by Antypodish - 2014-04-19, 07:15 PM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2014-04-19, 10:48 PM
RE: Battleships - by SangerZonvolt - 2014-04-20, 11:16 AM
RE: Battleships - by h0yer - 2014-04-19, 10:53 PM
RE: Battleships - by Vaim - 2014-04-22, 08:59 PM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2014-04-23, 06:21 AM
RE: Battleships - by h0yer - 2014-04-23, 07:56 AM
RE: Battleships - by SangerZonvolt - 2014-04-23, 08:45 PM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2014-04-23, 09:02 PM
RE: Battleships - by SangerZonvolt - 2014-04-23, 10:13 PM
RE: Battleships - by h0yer - 2014-04-23, 10:26 PM
RE: Battleships - by skullair - 2014-04-24, 06:35 AM
RE: Battleships - by h0yer - 2014-04-24, 01:36 PM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2014-04-24, 07:05 PM
RE: Battleships - by skullair - 2014-04-24, 08:43 PM
RE: Battleships - by SangerZonvolt - 2014-04-24, 11:26 PM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2014-04-25, 05:38 AM
RE: Battleships - by skullair - 2014-04-25, 06:54 AM
RE: Battleships - by SangerZonvolt - 2014-04-25, 10:49 AM
RE: Battleships - by h0yer - 2014-04-24, 08:15 PM
RE: Battleships - by drNovikov - 2015-02-11, 05:56 PM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2014-04-24, 08:47 PM
RE: Battleships - by skullair - 2014-04-24, 09:18 PM
RE: Battleships - by Tchou - 2014-04-24, 11:41 PM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2014-04-25, 11:18 AM
RE: Battleships - by SangerZonvolt - 2014-04-25, 09:43 PM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2014-04-25, 10:58 PM
RE: Battleships - by Nick Smart - 2014-04-25, 11:07 PM
RE: Battleships - by skullair - 2014-04-25, 11:09 PM
RE: Battleships - by Antypodish - 2014-04-26, 12:47 AM
RE: Battleships - by SangerZonvolt - 2014-04-28, 11:48 AM
RE: Battleships - by ReynoldsXD - 2015-01-09, 07:07 PM
RE: Battleships - by FordGT90Concept - 2015-01-12, 06:27 AM
RE: Battleships - by Bombzero - 2015-01-12, 11:07 AM
RE: Battleships - by FordGT90Concept - 2015-01-12, 02:43 PM
RE: Battleships - by drNovikov - 2015-01-13, 04:08 PM
RE: Battleships - by Ixos - 2015-01-17, 10:37 PM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2015-01-17, 08:46 PM
RE: Battleships - by Bombzero - 2015-02-04, 07:53 AM
RE: Battleships - by Clusterduck - 2015-02-11, 09:34 PM
RE: Battleships - by LogicEngineer - 2015-02-05, 12:55 AM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2015-02-05, 12:15 PM
RE: Battleships - by h0yer - 2015-02-15, 11:28 PM
RE: Battleships - by NathanTheSpaceSurvivor - 2015-02-22, 11:53 PM
RE: Battleships - by Quellix - 2015-02-23, 06:11 PM
RE: Battleships - by Clusterduck - 2015-02-23, 08:12 PM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2015-02-23, 08:47 PM
RE: Battleships - by drNovikov - 2015-02-24, 01:21 AM
RE: Battleships - by Malphas - 2015-02-24, 05:38 AM
RE: Battleships - by drNovikov - 2015-02-24, 06:48 AM
RE: Battleships - by Ixos - 2015-02-24, 07:48 AM
RE: Battleships - by drNovikov - 2015-02-24, 10:16 AM
RE: Battleships - by Ixos - 2015-02-24, 11:14 AM
RE: Battleships - by drNovikov - 2015-02-24, 03:14 PM
RE: Battleships - by Ixos - 2015-02-24, 03:50 PM
RE: Battleships - by Malphas - 2015-02-24, 12:12 PM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2015-02-24, 08:36 PM
RE: Battleships - by joe12473 - 2015-03-30, 06:51 PM
RE: Battleships - by ARCAGNELL0 - 2015-03-30, 07:14 PM
RE: Battleships - by elboydo - 2015-03-31, 12:38 PM
RE: Battleships - by ARCAGNELL0 - 2015-03-31, 05:20 PM
RE: Battleships - by joe12473 - 2015-03-31, 05:46 PM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2015-03-31, 07:28 PM
RE: Battleships - by Ixos - 2015-04-02, 05:24 PM
RE: Battleships - by Savaage - 2015-03-31, 10:40 PM
RE: Battleships - by joe12473 - 2015-04-01, 12:14 AM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2015-04-01, 12:18 PM
RE: Battleships - by Lman94 - 2015-04-03, 09:53 PM
RE: Battleships - by Savaage - 2015-04-01, 03:13 PM
RE: Battleships - by h0yer - 2015-04-04, 11:02 AM
RE: Battleships - by Ixos - 2015-04-22, 07:37 AM
RE: Battleships - by joe12473 - 2015-04-04, 05:21 PM
RE: Battleships - by Savaage - 2015-04-04, 05:30 PM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2015-04-05, 10:12 PM
RE: Battleships - by pre1032 - 2015-04-21, 11:36 PM
RE: Battleships - by Clusterduck - 2015-04-22, 04:26 AM
RE: Battleships - by h0yer - 2015-04-22, 05:16 AM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2015-04-22, 10:54 AM
RE: Battleships - by elboydo - 2015-04-23, 09:11 PM
RE: Battleships - by Esthil - 2015-04-29, 03:35 PM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2015-04-29, 05:12 PM
RE: Battleships - by Savaage - 2015-04-29, 07:26 PM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2015-04-29, 08:45 PM
RE: Battleships - by Clusterduck - 2015-04-29, 09:18 PM
RE: Battleships - by h0yer - 2015-04-30, 07:01 AM
RE: Battleships - by Ixos - 2015-04-30, 10:06 AM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2015-04-30, 10:02 AM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2015-04-30, 06:20 PM
RE: Battleships - by Ixos - 2015-04-30, 09:23 PM
RE: Battleships - by Esthil - 2015-05-01, 02:24 PM
RE: Battleships - by Artificial Insanity - 2015-06-11, 06:57 AM
RE: Battleships - by Blothorn - 2015-06-11, 08:07 AM
RE: Battleships - by ExRedux - 2015-06-11, 08:26 AM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2015-06-11, 10:54 AM
RE: Battleships - by Ixos - 2015-06-12, 05:02 PM
RE: Battleships - by Artificial Insanity - 2015-06-11, 03:07 PM
RE: Battleships - by furioustep197 - 2015-06-12, 06:09 PM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2015-06-12, 06:58 PM
RE: Battleships - by Artificial Insanity - 2015-06-13, 12:04 AM
RE: Battleships - by Ixos - 2015-06-13, 10:15 PM
RE: Battleships - by Blothorn - 2015-06-13, 02:25 AM
RE: Battleships - by Artificial Insanity - 2015-06-13, 06:34 AM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2015-06-13, 10:18 PM
RE: Battleships - by Ixos - 2015-06-13, 11:22 PM
RE: Battleships - by ARCAGNELL0 - 2015-06-13, 10:46 PM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2015-06-14, 10:36 AM
RE: Battleships - by Blothorn - 2015-06-13, 11:05 PM
RE: Battleships - by Artificial Insanity - 2015-06-14, 12:38 AM
RE: Battleships - by Artificial Insanity - 2015-06-14, 05:21 PM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2015-06-15, 09:31 AM
RE: Battleships - by ARCAGNELL0 - 2015-06-14, 05:22 PM
RE: Battleships - by Artificial Insanity - 2015-06-15, 03:10 PM
RE: Battleships - by Blothorn - 2015-06-15, 03:25 PM
RE: Battleships - by Artificial Insanity - 2015-06-15, 11:17 PM
RE: Battleships - by Blothorn - 2015-06-16, 01:30 AM
RE: Battleships - by Artificial Insanity - 2015-06-16, 02:11 AM
RE: Battleships - by yay101 - 2015-06-16, 02:11 AM
RE: Battleships - by Ixos - 2015-06-20, 08:43 AM
RE: Battleships - by Powerracer - 2015-06-20, 02:10 PM
RE: Battleships - by yay101 - 2015-06-20, 03:20 PM
RE: Battleships - by Professor_Petaflop - 2015-06-20, 04:14 PM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2015-06-20, 05:16 PM
RE: Battleships - by Professor_Petaflop - 2015-06-20, 05:53 PM
RE: Battleships - by TauNeutrino - 2015-06-20, 06:05 PM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2015-06-20, 06:24 PM
RE: Battleships - by Professor_Petaflop - 2015-06-20, 07:34 PM
RE: Battleships - by lemmington - 2015-06-20, 09:36 PM
RE: Battleships - by Artificial Insanity - 2015-06-21, 02:00 AM
RE: Battleships - by h0yer - 2015-06-22, 06:48 AM
RE: Battleships - by Ixos - 2015-06-22, 09:19 AM
RE: Battleships - by Esthil - 2015-06-23, 12:27 AM
RE: Battleships - by h0yer - 2015-06-23, 06:18 AM

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