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Proposal for campaign changes

If any sort of gates would be added, i say it is essential to make it not-self defeating by being ultra expensive to make and run. The tools to get valour and stuff is what should help you get to the end and mid game with flying colours and archive victory through tactics of systematically destroying enemy fleets and using combined arms of your allies. Not that you will get access to it in the end game, where you dont need to spend everything you have for vessels to survive the enemy attacks like at the start and you pretty much dont need anyone because you are that strong.

Rather than teleport, I think it meshes better to simply summon a given force to a location and then have to plan around the travel time.  Maybe one can set up mercenary bases (a new type of fortress controller? or a simple card modifier?) to enable regional access to mercenaries and a place to drop loot. 

In addition, how would this work with withdrawing fleets?  Would we be able to pay influence to get out of fights that become unwinnable like the classic duster zooming off into space away from a sub?

This is rather unrelated but could we also get some kind of buff to the overall material income? The current regeneration rate + starting stockpiles are rather out of date, having been set well before many of the currently expensive blocks came in. Rather than serving to curb the player it seems to add lots of mandatory 10x game-play to build a reserve of even a few tens of thousands. That would be fine if it was still possible to build super cheap, but the baseline cost of just about everything, down to mandatory blocks like the AI, has increased substantially.
-Do not bring forth an argument as fact that can be disproven with a 10 minute Google search.

I do like the idea of the campaign changes. This also means I can be a paragon and I do not have to kill the 'good' factions like the Steel Striders, Onyx Watch or their allies. Mercenaries also sound cool, but I am not sure as to whether I will use them or not.

Sorry for the long post, but I had some ideas mainly for the campaign AI and thought I could share it here (correct me if it’s the wrong place). I’m relatively new to the game at about 200 hours so I’m sorry If I recommend some stuff that is outright stupid (lol) or hard to implement.


I think a good idea would be to bring back individual resources as it would add a better feeling of progression and challenge to the game. It prevents you from facing the DWG with lasers and makes resource gathering more important. I don’t think it would be hard to grasp for a new player since you similar resource systems are already there in many games.

Changes to strategic AI:

The enemy will start with a set number of ships determined by the difficulty level and can build new ships based on its economy. So if you let the enemy capture your resource zones or keep them unoccupied for too long they will become stronger (this could be limited to the faction you are at war with so that endgame factions don’t become too strong). Certain ships could be set to spawn in specific places to make them unique. The AI could also actively try to attack your resource zones and keep you under pressure. So you would either have to attack or prepare defences to grind the enemy down. Certain strategic locations like a strait leading to a resource zone could be marked so that the enemy AI builds defensive structures there. You could even have fortress deep inland or even under the sea which you could attack with ground units or submarines.

Rock Paper Scissors System:

I think a rock-paper-scissors approach would be a good idea to prevent the single ship meta and encourage combined arms. Ships built for the factions could have different roles and things they are good at countering. These counters could be divided into four main groups: Submarines- Surface vessels- Aircraft - Spacecraft. They could be later classified according to their size. So the ships built by the player could also be put into one of these groups based on its average altitude and size.

So when you fight an enemy fleet with a small bomber, the enemy will be (kind-of) aware of what type of unit you’re using and send an anti-aircraft unit to counter it in a later battle. The strength of the enemy units and how quickly they get there could be adjusted by a difficulty slider so that it’s not too overwhelming for new players. This means that you need to build different types of ships to counter different threats and so does the enemy AI. The strength of the fleets the enemy sends could be calculated using another metric.

Threat Level:

To make the enemy AI smarter a threat level calculator could be added. When an enemy fleet fights with your fleet the number of blocks in a ship, the number of weapons, its speed and the materials it is made out of are analysed to create a threat level. So craft which are bigger, faster and have more weapons and use expensive blocks will be seen as a greater threat while small and slow ones are seen as a smaller threat. The enemy AI will then engage these fleets accordingly. So If you have a big battleship with lots of guns, the enemy will send larger more powerful fleets to counter it. So it will become harder to finish off an entire faction with one ship. If you have a small raft the enemy will send weak ships so that it won’t be too hard for beginners. Large ships would be still viable considering they are strong enough to face the growing enemy fleets. You could also use large ships to distract enemy forces from other important strategic locations and make surprise attacks.
The threat level can also increase with the reputation of the fleet. So if a ship has won many battles and destroyed a lot of enemy ships it will be seen as a big threat. So the AI will act more cleverly and will try to send bigger fleets to counter your craft. Since the reputation of a fleet increases over time there is a progressive increase in difficulty. The difficulty of the fleets the enemy sends could be adjusted from the campaign difficulty menu.

To make it meaningful to keep your ships alive for a long time something like a level system could be added to ships. So as the level of a ship increases it gains certain buffs to accuracy speed etc. as the crew is gaining more experience. This level could be capped at 5 or something to prevent things from becoming overpowered.
With this system, you could make small hit-and-run craft that raid weaker enemy ships and get away before reinforcements arrive. Together with an improved detection system you could make wolfpacks which attack convoys and over time the enemy adds escorts to its convoys to protect them and you will have to try a different tactic. Having these counters will force you to use different units and make to game more varied and interesting.
The capture system:

I think capturing ships could be a pretty interesting mechanic and would feel more rewarding with different resources added. To prevent capturing from being too OP :
1.       To capture a ship its health must be below 80% and most of its main weapons should be destroyed.
2.       Sentry turrets could be added to defend vital components.
3.       After you capture it, the ship will be marked as “Captured” and scrapping it will give only 25-50% of the resources it was made of)
So you could destroy DWG ships and scavenge them for wood to make your own wooden vessels but since it’s only wood you couldn’t make particle canons or other endgame stuff.


-Multiple resources
-Growing enemy fleet strength
-Rock-Paper-Scissors and specifically built counters
-Dynamic threat level which increases as your craft win battles
- Harder to capture ships which give 25-50% of the resources they’re made of (Wood from a wooden craft) when scrapped.

I have been waiting for quite a while to return to this game and hoped for campaign improvements for a very long time, but i'm sad to say that what is proposed here doesn't sound appealing to me, especially the magic teleportation sounds quite strange to me as it directly defeats the interesting system of logistic that comes with having your forces in the right time at the right time(even more so with loacalized resources). It would mean gameplay wise that you have a blob with all your force gaining teleportation credits and a few singular interceptor crafts that fly to anything that tries to attack your land, that then magically summons an actual defense fleet. To me that does not sound interesting in the slightest.

The idea that a force could acquire a reputation that makes it more likely that the enemy sends stronger forces against it sounds very interesting in theory, but that would mean you don't invite them to fight on your terms but the AI to hunt you down to sink your prized flagship. This would mean that you at some point need to actually protect your most successful fleet or loose it or maybe even use that exact behavior to lure the enemy into a trap and deal a decisive blow. The big distinction between fighting the enemy on your terms because you magically summoned them from a save place to you and provoking the enemy to come to you is that one feels boring (at least to me) while the other involves emergent gameplay and strategy.

What i would actually hope for and in fact have now hoped for for almost 5 years is a real strategic AI that reacts to the players actions in a proper manner, like adjusting their fleet compositions for example if you use mainly subs that wreck them every battle with torpedoes take to the skies and send depth charge dropping planes. I know that something like this would likely require quite a few more crafts and variants for said AI to choose from but i also think that this very community has demonstrated that it is ready and willing to help build crafts in all shapes and sizes to help make this game come alive.

>but the AI to hunt you down to sink your prized flagship. This would mean that you at some point need to actually protect your most successful fleet or loose it or maybe even use that exact behavior to lure the enemy into a trap and deal a decisive blow. The big distinction between fighting the enemy on your terms because you magically summoned them from a save place to you and provoking the enemy to come to you is that one feels boring (at least to me) while the other involves emergent gameplay and strategy.

I really like this suggestion.

I also think it would pair well with the idea of having allies send assisting fleets that follow your fleet instead of simply teleporting them on demand.

Oh, finaly, after all those years!

This is a total yes! (Except, ofc teleportation).
The faction AI with roaming fleets would be awesome! If players could mod it - would be double awesome!
This would definitely make me try to gather my friends of old back to multiplayer again.

I guess this is impossible, but it could add to the upcoming changes:
random generated map?
Or(this one is more plosible):
Random generated resource nodes locations/spawns (ai factions/player)
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Just to clarify, the removal of "garrisons" is just getting rid of the numeric-based tile system of randomly reinforcing rigmarole? I'm down with that. As long as factions retain their respective HQ / command structures, I think this would be great.
No teleportation though, please.

Sounds interesting, I suggest you to make it as something separate, and introduce this new variable of merits and mercenaries after fixing core strategic problems. You know I write this without any malice, as this is my favourite game and the best contact between developers and players.
Still thinking that bringing the strategy part up to the level of an everyday strategy game (like the thrice damned Supreme Commander 2) is higher priority - as balancing and taming what we have should precede any new unbalanced things we should hoard.

As a guideline I will detail my current beginning strategy in the Neter campaign - if someone downloaded my units or watched my YT channel, heshe knows that I am using every little gate, glitch, and funny setting available, as this is WAR, and anything possibble in-game are abiding the rules in game.

Neter campaign setting: 1:1 damage player:enemy, lowered the difficulty to expert because on godly I encounter _only_ godly enemies, and that could become boring. Localised resources as always.
I prefer to set resources from killing to the max, and sad because 80% and sinking cannot be set to another value (50% maybe?), as a lot of my units enjoy the protecting embrace of the sea, and able to regenerate from death.

Of course I am using terrain the best I can, trapping enemy ships just before land, or planes inside high mountains.

My unit collection are usually all terrain flying submarines and buildings (to avoid problems with terrain collision), they are either sub-units like Twin Guards, or working closely together (or resource group 1, repair bots/tentacles, intra-vehicle transmitters, mostly no or low energy, huge ammo blocks, internal turreted detection, mainly armour, at most a few shields).

At the beginning I immediately switch beginning buildings to a really tiny fortress for collection, and deploy 4 kinds of cheap underwater fortifications:
-simple torpedo building
-simple missile building with one functioning radar buoy (provide abovesea detection for all units)
-a little fort with a flak-turret, firing at torpedoes, missiles and enemies with flak, while shooting some antitorpedoes
-an armoured ammo cube (provides ammo boost all around)

These units usually strengthen and repair my other forces in the area, even in combat, eradicating torpedoes which are the only thing they should be afraid off, and slaughtering any DWG unit which comes my way.
At this time I usually launch some strategic-radar unit to see the incoming forces - which could be more in-depth (satellites blind to submarines, and vice versa for example).

After collecting enough resources via mining, killing, and the occasional capture, I have the bucks to build actually moving units, just various airships mainly built from cannons, with the ability to ram if the need arises.

With these groups I move northeast on DWG territory, making a channel directly to White Flayer waters, which I attack, and go to war. This will raise the ire of Lightning Hoods, too.
But what's happening, and why I do this?

Here are the answers:
-Onyx Watch will like me more and more (last time they let me in into their territories to freely mine their resource zones)
-when an AI unit goes thru enemy territory, they get damaged without battles (that means most WF and any LH units will be damaged till they reach my home base
-when an AI spawns a group of units, they aren't spending any resources from even limited zones (that's mean the DWG unit-killer fortressline produces more infinite resources in the long run, than conquering DWG would get me, while makes unnecessary to protect the eastern DWG infinite resource zone right at the mouth of the neighborHood)

So I have to protect a smaller territory inside "friendly" or at least enemy of my enemy territories, have more resources in the long run, while losing resources mostly via my attacking forces if they get defeated.

By the way, what was really the problem with vertically floating missiles?
Anti-avatar weapon controllers would make capturing hard enough without any further tweaking.

Stay EPIC!
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(2019-08-28, 08:37 AM)Normal69 Wrote: As a guideline I will detail my current beginning strategy in the Neter campaign - if someone downloaded my units or watched my YT channel, heshe knows that I am using every little gate, glitch, and funny setting available, as this is WAR, and anything possibble in-game are abiding the rules in game.

Noone expects fortifications on the sea floor!! Big Grin 

Glad to see other people also farm the deepwater guard.

I can see why people would dislike the teleporting aspect of the whole spiel but as a gametheoritical system on paper I think it's quite good. I hope that we can settle on an implementation that manages to please everyone, because I'm looking forward to raising elite forces and making an impact!

And I'd like to reiterate the ideas of "map nodes" of resources, neutral villages that donate their factions designs in a slow dripple, airstrips for aircraft, gantries and radar sights to fight over Missiles silos for tactical strikes; And An economic overhaul where resource harvesting is split between oil as a base component for making fuel, a high tech limitng source of income, possibly, and building materials. If we could have a triangle like with fuel engines between size, power density and refining efficiency of raw extracted to usable resources in multipart refineries, that'd be great. Plus, uses for buildings for unit fabrication, fortresses, ...

to sum my thought up, whichever form they would take
To not add non-combat challenges to the campaign would be a sorely missed opportunity.
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