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What on earth is wrong with this Large Rudder on my ship. - Printable Version

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RE: What on earth is wrong with this Large Rudder on my ship. - BKCXb7 - 2018-11-12

A ship is a vessel larger than a boat for transporting people or goods by sea,.

A boat is a small vessel propelled on water by oars, sail or an engine.

Properly means correctly or thoroughly done .

BioPhoeniox boat /ship fits into these definitions.

I didn't know there was an order or some sort of pre ordained way to build vehicles .................

I thought this was I build what you want type game(where giant metal bricks can fly using no power).

The problem I see is they are not rudders............rudders in the game exerts force perpendicular to themselves , at the top of the origin block, with a purple force line.

The new rudders are not doing this(or acting in a manner which the player would expect)

They are applying heliblade force and seem to interact with buoyancy, not center of mass. (a big clue is how they are orientated in the build UI, everything is orientated 90 degress to how the player wants to place them).

Is this a design flaw/bug only the deves can tell us that, they are designing the world and it's rules.

The new rudders need to apply more force, the more you add, and they need to do it with angularity (heliblade code already does that, so it make sense they would use it)

Heliblades work in and out of the water, to stop that one would have to tie that code to something only a boat has, that's buoyancy.

I played with them on some of my craft and didn't find any real noticeable difference in spinblock position, they are warping heliblade force to the buoyancy center point.

I didn't get much change from standard rudders(they are slower and less jittery) but did start having more change the bigger they got(more rudders warping more force to a floating point)

I don't agree with this, but if that what they had to do to get them to work, than so be it.. I also don't see it as that big of a problem..

Large rudders were meant for large ships, large ships have a more stable buoyancy point. The smaller/lighter the boat the more unstable the buoyancy point.

Only real problem I see is when large ships get holes in buoyancy pockets the buoyancy change will apply force to a different place.

we will have to see if this is a problem or not because it will affect each design differently.


RE: What on earth is wrong with this Large Rudder on my ship. - DraWay - 2018-11-12

"Proper ship" is simply a ship that does not need (and have) any additional tricks to stay upright and afloat. In FTD, hard to achieve under certain size, due to block based physics.
BioPhoenix's boat is close to best possible variant for this size and proportions, but it can be better. Still, my best mineboat somewhat lists with big rudder.
As i know, real mineboats of similar size and proportions also had stability issues in tight turns.


RE: What on earth is wrong with this Large Rudder on my ship. - BioPhoenix - 2018-11-15

I have discovered the problem after a bit more thorough investigation.
The forces are always applied in a horizontal plane with respect to the center of mass. The horizontal plane is globally horizontal, not with respect to the ship. This means that if the boat has even a slight bit of pitch instability, the forces will affect it in undesired ways, such as rolling it over.

Furthermore ... Having the force from rudders apply always apply on a plane like that is in and of itself is an 'additional trick' to the boat's design, and I would say much more so than even something like stabilization propellers! FTD is a physics driven game, and at the moment, these rudders are the second most unrealistic force-generating part available in the game (after the single-block rudder with its force generated being proportional to vehicle mass), as every other force-applying part applies force at its own location rather than at a phantom location.

It's good to know that this is just weird design rather than a bug, but it's still really weird design.


RE: What on earth is wrong with this Large Rudder on my ship. - DraWay - 2018-11-15

I said exactly that in second reply. Sigh.
And yep, must agree, they went a little too far with augmenting that rudder. iirc modded rudder worked in vehicle-relative plane. Request is still there, go and vote for better future!
Without any augments, though, it cannot work, because FTD rock-solid-water physics.