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Laser/LAMS rework (2.15) - Printable Version

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Laser/LAMS rework (2.15) - draba - 2017-12-12

A laser overhaul to fix the following problems in the base game:
  • Lasers are useless against strong designs. 2-3 laser shields completely nullify them for a fraction of the cost of the weapon system.
  • There is no real cost for going very fast. Practically all weapon systems perform better against slow things.
  • Lasers only work with very long optic lines, can't be effectively turreted(definitely won't look good).
  • Damage output on unmitigated lasers is silly high, if you remove shields/smoke a <100K cost laser kills godlies costing over 500K in 10 seconds tops.
  • There is no reason to use offensive continuous lasers with only 50% DPS.

Steam workshop:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1229118690
Changelog:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/changelog/1229118690
Needs Gladyon's
ProtecTech Industries's plugins tools

[Image: yCzYsVcl.jpg]

Laser optics changes:
  • Lasers have a fixed inaccuracy of 0.05° (+-1.75m error at 2000m)
  • Longer optic lines have a smaller maximum firing angle. At 1m length that's 60°, at 20m 12.5°, 50m ~5.56°.
  • Focusing optics decrease damage lost with distance in air/water.
  • You need 25% of your optic line to be steering to have the maximum possible firing angle.
  • Optic visuals toned down, maxed out they are only ~45% as thick as a 6-steering line in vanilla.
  • Material cost up from 20 to 50 for both focusing and steering
This way there is a tradeoff between firing angle and longrange damage, every setup has some use.

Laser energy changes:
  • Laser pump energy output(DPS) reduced to 20% of it's previous value.
  • Power cost/energy doubled, so it's 40% of a vanilla system with the same parts.
  • Cavity storage is untouched, so it got a relative 25% buff compared to DPS. A bit more leeway to play around with silly setups.
  • Cavity costs are halved, pump costs are increased to 150%.
  • Energy readings changed, so 1 power = 1 laser energy and 2 laser energy = 1 damage (0.5 damage with continuous).
    Just a cosmetic tweak to makes things easier to folllow.
This way adding a laser won't triple your crafts's power need, and defenseless fliers can last a little while against a laser in the same weightclass.
LAMS might still be a bit too good despite the 1/5 damage, will see.

Laser defense changes:
  • Laser shields no longer cost energy, only engine power.
  • Continuous lasers have twice the AP of pulsed, with the same half damage as before.
  • Instead of directly reducing damage shields now cut laser AP to 1 / (2 * SHIELD_STRENGTH), 50% - 5%. Only the strongest shield hit counts.
  • Wavefront cuts laser damage in half, but quadruples the amount of AP the laser has after hitting shields (100% at STR1, 20% at STR10).
  • Smoke reduces damage to 30% for each layer, 50% with wavefront.
  • APS smoke shells removed.
  • Frequency doubler cost up to 200.
Now there is a drawback to going fast, stacked smoke is the only perfect laser defense but it gobbles up resources at 100 m/s.
Against 1 layer of smoke no wavefront is slightly better, against more wavefront takes over so it's not a clear-cut case which one should you use.

Adding more doublers is very costly: every 100 AP in itself costs more than the rest of the system with engines.
You get a much better volume efficiency against strong shields but potentially throw away damage against weak ones/smoke/soft targets mostly made of wood/flight surfaces.
Continuous is very good against shielded flyers, no overkill on soft bits and same total DPS as pulsed.

Burst lasers:
  • Cavity storage up to 125%
  • Default cavity discharge rate is down to 25%
  • Destabilizers now affect the entire coupler, not only the cavity line they are on
  • Each destabilizer doubles discharge rate, up until using the entire cavity in 1 sec at 5

LAMS changes:
  • Option to target only out of water/under water projectiles
  • Options to target only projectiles with a diameter above X mm and/or below Y mm (missiles are 500mm)
  • Option to stop firing when under smoke
  • Inaccuracy reduced to 0.05°
  • Damage loss at range increased(only does 75% at 500m, 56.25% at 1000)
  • LAMS node cost up from 30 to 200 since they do not need to be spammed as much with the new range.
  • Improved targeting:
    - will look for another target when the previous one is starting to get further away
    - stricter angle/distance checks
    - less possible downtime against destroyed projectiles

Overall LAMS is less powerful, but has more effective range.
Building up energy for bursts is now a viable strategy.

Misc:
  • There are now 10 wireless AI channels available.
  • Better tooltips all around.
  • Fixed a vanilla bug causing pulsed lasers to have 1 AP with some setups.
  • Fixed a vanilla bug causing the first layer of smoke to count as 2.

Removed:
  • The higher frequency on LWCs






[Image: wR1ExeRl.jpg] [Image: CHOTr1kl.jpg]
[Image: cmYkNokl.jpg] [Image: tFB56o3l.jpg]


RE: Laser rework, aim fix - higamerXD - 2017-12-12

from what i see this is a BIG nerf and some buffs
but with the missile rework mod this will not at all work for they have buffed health.
still, this could be fun but it will break alot of campain desinges


RE: Laser rework, aim fix - draba - 2017-12-12

(2017-12-12, 08:32 AM)higamerXD Wrote: from what i see this is a BIG nerf and some buffs
but with the missile rework mod this will not at all work for they have buffed health.
still, this could be fun but it will break alot of campain desinges

This is a massive buff.
Lasers can consistently hit and are doing significant damage even to the best flyers.

Note that the 1/5 nominal damage cut is only 1/5 up to 1000m-ish, with new optics lasers are much more consistent at long range.
At 2000m old lasers/aim will miss more often than not, and do only ~52% damage.
New ones still hit and with midsized optics can still do 80%+ of their base damage.

Having lower DPS against unprotected targets is intended, now an unshielded singularity takes 20 seconds to kill instead of 5.
Without mitigation laser DPS is off the charts, the reduction is necessary.

Laser damage costs many times more(both material and volume) than battery charge needed to nullify it.
In vanilla 2 layers of STR6 shields reduce laser damage to 0.57%, 1 layer of smoke to 1%.
Dunno 0.33 wavefront numbers off the top of my head but they are the same "too low, doesn't matter".
If something can be killed by lasers it's just too bad to be considered from a balance standpoint.

The 2.5x accuracy buff for LAMS is massive, it's still on the too strong side but this is such a QoL improvement I wanted to do it.
Also makes projectile detection range matter in some cases, against 100-200m effective range of old LAMS it didn't make a difference.

The missile mod actually needs this change: I really wanted to reduce missile HP there, but the silly LAMS DPS ties my hand.
Now I can do it and nerf flak a bit, it would've to be pushed above HE numbers to be where I'd like it.
Who knows, maybe someday kinetic CIWS won't be objectively bad Smile


The mod shouldn't affect campaign too much:
- LWCs on some designs fall back to 2Hz and detection goes down to "only decent" accuracy
- LAMS works, 4Q even better than before on some things.
- Lasers tend to have 30-80 AP so they work more or less the same. Price goes up a bit.
- There is a power surplus on things that use any lasers.


RE: Laser rework, aim fix - higamerXD - 2017-12-12

(2017-12-12, 10:03 AM)draba Wrote:
(2017-12-12, 08:32 AM)higamerXD Wrote: from what i see this is a BIG nerf and some buffs
but with the missile rework mod this will not at all work for they have buffed health.
still, this could be fun but it will break alot of campain desinges

This is a massive buff.
Lasers can consistently hit and are doing significant damage even to the best flyers.

Note that the 1/5 nominal damage cut is only 1/5 up to 1000m-ish, with new optics lasers are much more consistent at long range.
At 2000m old lasers/aim will miss more often than not, and do only ~52% damage.
New ones still hit and with midsized optics can still do 80%+ of their base damage.

Having lower DPS against unprotected targets is intended, now an unshielded singularity takes 20 seconds to kill instead of 5.
Without mitigation laser DPS is off the charts, the reduction is necessary.

Laser damage costs many times more(both material and volume) than battery charge needed to nullify it.
In vanilla 2 layers of STR6 shields reduce laser damage to 0.57%, 1 layer of smoke to 1%.
Dunno 0.33 wavefront numbers off the top of my head but they are the same "too low, doesn't matter".
If something can be killed by lasers it's just too bad to be considered from a balance standpoint.

The 2.5x accuracy buff for LAMS is massive, it's still on the too strong side but this is such a QoL improvement I wanted to do it.
Also makes projectile detection range matter in some cases, against 100-200m effective range of old LAMS it didn't make a difference.

The missile mod actually needs this change: I really wanted to reduce missile HP there, but the silly LAMS DPS ties my hand.
Now I can do it and nerf flak a bit, it would've to be pushed above HE numbers to be where I'd like it.
Who knows, maybe someday kinetic CIWS won't be objectively bad Smile


The mod shouldn't affect campaign too much:
- LWCs on some designs fall back to 2Hz and detection goes down to "only decent" accuracy
- LAMS works, 4Q even better than before on some things.
- Lasers tend to have 30-80 AP so they work more or less the same. Price goes up a bit.
- There is a power surplus on things that use any lasers.

im sorry i never used lasers so i dint know it was that bad.
i am now gona test it out to see how it works


RE: Laser rework, aim fix - Gladyon - 2017-12-12

I haven't yet had enough time to try it, but from what I read I think it's excellent.
The balance is a lot better than vanilla, there are only 2 things that are bothering me:
- the GP cost for the LWC frequency should be higher (I really like the fact that without enough GP if falls back to lower frequencies, a very good idea!)
- I will need to test if a battleship can defend itself without smoke, because smoke would completely nullify its LAMS

The LAMS are really bothering me because the only practical way I see is to place them on poles, or on extended parts of the hull, which is very good from an engineering point of view.
Unfortunately, from an aesthetic point of view I'm pretty sure it's one of the most horrible things to do...

And there is the fact that it's quite hard to know where the smoke will deploy exactly, so it's not easy to place LAMS so that they will not hit the smoke.


RE: Laser rework, aim fix - khkpck - 2017-12-12

vanilla LAMS nodes are ugly as sin

and from an engineering point unrealistic

real defence laser systems are turret mounted anyway

like: https://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/media/editor_media/rm_defence/produktbilder/HEL_Air-Defence-HEL-Effector-30kW_kl.jpg

only my 50cent's (i dont like those nodes)

this mod look awesome


RE: Laser rework, aim fix - draba - 2017-12-12

(2017-12-12, 10:16 AM)Gladyon Wrote: I haven't yet had enough time to try it, but from what I read I think it's excellent.
The balance is a lot better than vanilla, there are only 2 things that are bothering me:
- the GP cost for the LWC frequency should be higher (I really like the fact that without enough GP if falls back to lower frequencies, a very good idea!)
- I will need to test if a battleship can defend itself without smoke, because smoke would completely nullify its LAMS

The LAMS are really bothering me because the only practical way I see is to place them on poles, or on extended parts of the hull, which is very good from an engineering point of view.
Unfortunately, from an aesthetic point of view I'm pretty sure it's one of the most horrible things to do...

And there is the fact that it's quite hard to know where the smoke will deploy exactly, so it's not easy to place LAMS so that they will not hit the smoke.

I'm hesitating between:
  • Each processing power costs 50 engine power/sec, a single summarized power request is sent once each frame.
  • Simply doubling processing power cost for LWC
I like the powered version more but it might be too much complexity for some.

IMO smoke isn't a problem in this version.
A battleship is 100m+ long, smoke has 20m radius and LAMS placement isn't as critical (instead of ~100m effective range it has ~300).
Even with laser changing aim 1/sec it should be decently easy to keep coverage. Now that you mention it a "Don't fire under smoke" tickbox would be great for LAMS nodes.
If all else fails use 1 smoke + 1 moderately strong shield, that forces wavefront and most LAMS nodes still work at 30% output.

If LAMS wasn't 100% necessary it would open up even more, getting there Smile


RE: Laser rework, aim fix - Gladyon - 2017-12-12

(2017-12-12, 11:07 AM)draba Wrote: I'm hesitating between:
  • Each processing power costs 50 engine power/sec, a single summarized power request is sent once each frame.
  • Simply doubling processing power cost for LWC
I like the powered version more but it might be too much complexity for some.

I like the idea of GP costing a lot of energy.


(2017-12-12, 11:07 AM)draba Wrote: IMO smoke isn't a problem in this version.
A battleship is 100m+ long, smoke has 20m radius and LAMS placement isn't as critical (instead of ~100m effective range it has ~300).
Even with laser changing aim 1/sec it should be decently easy to keep coverage. Now that you mention it a "Don't fire under smoke" tickbox would be great for LAMS nodes.
If all else fails use 1 smoke + 1 moderately strong shield, that forces wavefront and most LAMS nodes still work at 30% output.

If LAMS wasn't 100% necessary it would open up even more, getting there Smile

Don't fire under smoke, or don't fire in smoke, would be good.
And I think you're right, a little smoke a a laser shield and it's OK against lasers and nearly OK for LAMS.
I like it.


RE: Laser rework, aim fix - harnas1977 - 2017-12-12

(2017-12-12, 10:51 AM)khkpck Wrote: vanilla LAMS nodes are ugly as sin

and from an engineering point unrealistic

real defence laser systems are turret mounted anyway

like: https://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/media/editor_media/rm_defence/produktbilder/HEL_Air-Defence-HEL-Effector-30kW_kl.jpg

only my 50cent's (i dont like those nodes)

this mod look awesome

I agree, it would be nice to have a CIWS laser solution that could utilise Anti-Missile Controller. Would look really cool with Draba's changes.


RE: Laser rework, aim fix - draba - 2017-12-12

The problem is that LAMS is pretty much mandatory below ~150 m/s, could get really annoying to try and fit a few turrets instead of slapping down some blocks on everything.
A new model for LAMS/optics would be nice though.